Building Control minefield - New installation, by a newbie!

[GreenIan]

Hi,

I'm in the process of slowly gathering and installing the bits for a solar thermal system. So far I have in place and Oventrop pumping station, steca controller, EV. I also fitted a retro fit coil.

I have plumbed my coil to the pumping station, EV is in place, feed from the mains water, 10mm pipes into the airing cupboard from the loft, steca controller ready to be connected to the old immersion fused spur.

So far so good. Now I just got myself a 30 tube panel and having assessed my roof decided to put it on a small section of flat roof which nestles between the "U" shape of the pitched roof. The original house was "L" shaped, then a new "L" shaped extension was added with the bit in between as flat roof. So the flat roof dates from about 2001. I can easily get onto the flat roof and it has a good view of the southern sky.

Now the difficult bit. I emailed the planning guys. Basically unhelpful apart from saying it shouldn't interfere with the amenity of the area etc.., but they don't provide free advice so if I want a definite statement I have to pay and apply for planning permission. Lovely. Anyway as the flat roof is at the back  of the house and the panel will be below the roof apex, I'm going to wing that one.

But building control... I emailed them and this came back:

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your e-mail dated 26 April. I can confirm that a Building Regulations application will be required for the following reasons.

1) The work comprises the installation of a controlled service or fitting under Part L1B of the building regulations.
2) The installation should be carried out by a competent person. As far as I’m aware it involves changing the water tank as it would need to be split i.e. heating via solar and grid.
3) A Commissioning Certificate and a part P Electrical Certificate will be required on completion will of works.
4) Another important point is the additional loading onto the roof. Strengthening of the roof timbers affected by the panel with a-frame and the new tank are likely to require strengthening.
 
There are some excellent companies around who specialise in these types of installations who would also issue the commissioning/electrical certificates.

Application forms and associated information can be downloaded from the Building Control Website www.westberks.gov.uk/buildingcontrol.gov.uk

I hope this helps
Best regards

How does PartL1B affect me? I just had a read and it suggests it affects properties over 1000m2. But how does it apply to solar?
If I just take the immersion cable out and put the controller cable in its place do I still need Part P?
She ignored my comment that I wasn't changing the tank. Just fitting a coil in place of the immersion.
What's a commissioning certificate?
Will they really expect me to strengthen an enclosed flat roof?? It doesn't move when I walk on it so why should 90kg spread over 4m2 cause a problem?

I feel a bit deflated here, this was an exciting DIY project, well within my skills of plumbing and wiring and suddenly it looks like I've got a BC roadblock. It appears that these people want it to be impossible to do a DIY install, so much for the green revolution. I my view if you can't do a low cost DIY install the economics just don't add up. How have other people dealt with BC?

Any help and advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks

Ian

[Countrypaul]

I would ring whoever sent you the reply and ask them why they believe PartL1B applies, they should be able to tell you or retract. With 2, I would again point out the tank will be unchanged and ask them to explain.

It should be possible to calculate whether the roof needs strengthening or not - the easy way out is to get an engineers report, but sometimes it becomes obvious if the beams are oversized for example.

If the electrics are in a bathroom, then other than changing a light bulb, don't all changes require a Part P certificate now?

Don't give up, the easy answer for BC is to get you to go to someone else and thereby avoid teh hassle for them imho.

Just bear in mind I have not done anything like this yet, so get more experienced opinions also.

Paul

[GreenIan]

Paul,

Thanks for the early reply. I've emailed them back to query these points, but their stock answer seems worded to put the wind up you!

The tank and electrics are all in a self contained airing cupboard of the hallway, not in the bathroom, so I can't really see why taking one cable out of a fused spur and replacing it with another should require Part P certification. But as I say, I'm no expert so I'm hoping those who know these things can guide me.

I've got no objections to paying BC to certify my work, Part P or otherwise, if that makes it all legal, but if I have to start paying a structural engineer hundreds of pounds to tell me that a small piece of new flat roof can stand the weight of a man, then it feels like its all getting a bit silly!

The PartL1B appears to be droning on about insulation, other than a bit of armaflex and a check valve to stop thermosyphoning I can't really see how it applies. Again, I'm no expert.

Ian

[PaulGa]

I would guess that most people solve the building control issue by...............not getting them involved. I should think that the majority of DIY systems are unnotified.

My belief is that these systems fall into the grey area of "probably" not requiring Building Control approval most likely varying by Building Control department. That is ofcourse if the electrics are outside the bathroom and wired into an existing circuit, not a new circuit (or by way of a plug into a socket), and also I "think" that open vented water tanks are viewed very much more leniently than unvented which definitely fall under the Building Control remit.

The roof strengthening is tricky. Common sense should prevail. A decent roof in good condition is fully capable of carrying the modest extra load.

I say don't tell Building Control....ahem....ofcourse I got my system signed off....ahem.

Finally, I would just caution you that I am just an average DIY bloke with no expertise so ignore all I have just said!

[dhaslam]

Sounds like they have taken your system  on a flat roof to be  like an integrated tank system  with the water tank on top.     Otherwise  why would there be a tank on the roof.     Could be that person has spent too many holidays in sunny warm  countries where those systems are popular. 

[KLD]

Ian,

Part L is split into dwellings (L1) and non-dwellings (L2), and new-build (a) and existing buildings (b). Part L1b is for existing dwellings. There is an online source for the documents here.

On page 20 of the approved document they talk about Controlled Services, under which space heating and hot water provision fall. And there is some detail about the notification process. For the installation of a solar thermal system this whole process is just a complete nonsense IMHO. Trouble is, now that they are aware of your plans it's not so easy to just not tell them anymore. That said, if it's not visible from the street, 

The structural part I feel is a little more important, you don't want the panel coming through the ceiling one day. It should be straightforward to find out, whether the existing rafters are borderline or have some spare capacity. Do you have access to the roof structure? Can you measure the rafter dimensions and the span? And maybe estimate the load that the roof covering imposes? That should get you started. If you send me a pm, I've got a PDF copy of the TRADA span tables.

Klaus

[desperate]

Ian

is it possible for you to phone your BC dept and speak to a duty officer or the surveyor for your area, or better still go and see him/her in person and explain exactly what you propose. They will be sympathetic and helpfull, you will have to comply with some regs, but they are not rocket science and your chat with the BC surveyor will clarify how best to acheive that. The structural issue with the roof is not so much the dead weight, but the wind load imposed, likely to be more than 90kgs? and dynamic.

Have you seen those "Benchmark" blue tickets that come with a new cylinder or boiler? that along with a sparkys Minor works certificate would comprise a commisioning certificate for most BC departments.

Phone your BC dept 99% of the time they are great.

Good luck

Desperate

[martin]

Quite frankly you should have steered well clear of them all together - "jobsworths" will stick their oar in if you give them a chance..........
It is "permitted development", so as long as you comply with the rules regarding the sparks and using a suitably qualified plumber if it's an unvented system, just do it

[GreenIan]

Guys, thanks for your comments.

The BC lady came back, ignored all the detail and questions and pointed me at Table 32 in the L1B document (with a patronizing "hope this helps"), saying you can do it DIY but you'd have to have the "system professionally commissioned". I think its safe to say that these people aren't exactly falling over themselves to help!

So table 32 talks about commissioning and I think we can safely assume that no solar installer would put his name, reputation and potentially legal responsibility to a solar system "cobbled" together by a DIYer. Now I have every confidence in what I'm doing, but I cannot imagine I would ever get a commissioning certificate from a "competent person" worth their salt. The only debate is what the definition of a "competent person" is in this case as the data expected is easy to gather and document.

Therefore we can assume that (according to L1B), no DIY system can ever be legally approved by BC and is therefore illegal. This is ignoring the open points about Part P and structural calculations on the roof.

So end of story. The local council (and therefore the Government) do not want to encourage people to take up renewables by virtue of making it impossible as a DIY project. In my view if you can't do it DIY, the payback period is so ridiculous that there's no point. As usual in this country, you try to do the right thing and a 100 obstacles are put in your way. 

Anyway as suggested I will press on with my system and pretend I never bothered asking and be prepared to take it all down as and when I come to move house. I will of course reply to BC and offer them the purchase of a set of components for a solar HW system....

I've cut and pasted the relevant section from L1B, perhaps someone else has a different interpretation!



2. Commissioning

a. A signed and dated commissioning certificate
should be completed to confirm that the
equipment has been correctly installed and to
record key safety and operational features.
b. As a minimum, the commissioning certificate
should record the following details of the
solar system:
• Net or aperture area of solar collector
• Minimum ambient temperature without
freeze damage to components
• Location and method of controlling overpressure
• Location of the electrical isolating switch
• Type of circulation fluid
• Circulation rate of collector circuit
• Location of device for overheating
protection of solar heated water
• A signed commissioning
certificate, certifying that the
equipment is safe, legal and fit for
its intended purpose, should be
handed over to the dwelling
owner and/or user as applicable.
• A separate certificate is required
to cover the installation and
commissioning of the hot water
storage vessels and/or appliances
within a solar DHW system.
• A commissioning engineer should
be a competent person who can
personally testify by signature and
date that the equipment is
commissioned.

[desperate]

GreenIan

Dont give up it isn't the end of the world, although it also doesn't sound like your BC are overhelpfull exactly.

I think you have 2 options, either just install it anyway and do your best to comply with the regs, get a sparks to do the electricals or issue a MWC, and then dont notify BC.

Or do the above and then notify and challenge the BC dept to say why it doesn't comply, the worst they can do is issue an improvement notice which must clearly state what needs doing. Carry out the improvements and bingo you have a completion cert.

Who did you speak to at the BC dept? try to get to speak to the surveyor who examines works in your area, in my experience the receptionists sometimes try to fob off individuals to lessen the workload


That commisioning document requires 6 bits of information about the install and 3 bits of paper that the council can archive, I think if you install the system yourself and the sign a bit of paper that states "I have commisioned this system Professionally" and the council can see that it is put together in a competant way, their resistance will fade quite rapidly, basically they would be able to state in court "we have covered our arse" and that is the bottom line for them.

Good luck

Desperate

[KLD]

Greenlan

This Table 32 you refer to, where did you find that? I can't see it in the Approved Document.

As a comparison, for electrical installations, you don't need to be "part P registered" to undertake the work, but instead as long as you feel you're competent to do the work, you give notice to the BC and they will send someone to test / certify it afterwards. Maybe something similar is available in this case?

Klaus

[Ted]

I think this is from the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf

Table 32 is on p66.

[KLD]

Thank you, Ted!
Klaus

[KLD]

On page 9 of the doc Ted found the link to, it reads:

  (...) The execution of the work is then subject to checking and inspections by the building control body, with a completion certificate being issued on satisfactory completion of the work. In certain situations, other procedures apply. These include:                                                                               
   a.     Where the work is being carried out under the terms of an authorised Competent Person (CP) self-certification scheme, (...)

Doesn't this mean, that the LABC is the default person for both, (i) the final inspection, and (ii) for issuing the completion certificate? And only in the special case that a member of a CP self-certification scheme has undertaken the work, can this person then perform the final inspection / certification.

Now, the question arises, can the Beyond Comprehension officer be classed as competent 

Klaus

[desperate]

Klaus, hi

Who cares? if Ian is happy he has installed correctly, and Beyond Comprehension sign it off..........job done.
The part that will get the BC panicking is the electricals, hence my suggestion to get a sparks in to help. The spark I use charges me 150 to "test and scribble" so it isn't a deal wrecker.

Desperate