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Author Topic: Lest we forget.........  (Read 2100 times)
mespilus
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2010, 08:50:30 PM »

Are there any nectarine orchards in the UK?
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2010, 10:18:43 AM »

While I don’t in any way condone the volume or the nature of that sort of legislation.

Quote
Imagine arriving home after a fortnight’s holiday in the sun to find a deluge of mail and your burglar alarm going off. There is no sign of a break-in but an offence has been committed — by you. Under laws introduced by Labour, if you have failed to nominate a keyholder who can switch off your alarm you are guilty of an offence. You could be liable for a fine of £1,000 and could have to appear in front of a magistrate if you fail to pay a fixed penalty on time.

Imagine watching your neighbour leaving in a taxi for the airport and minutes later his burglar alarm begins to sound, how much are you going to enjoy the following fortnight if he has not nominated a key holder.

It would be far better if we could rely on people to use their common sense but this no longer appears to be an option. so we now need laws to stop under 18s using coin operated sun tan booths.

Far too many know their rights but have no concept of the responsibilities that go with them.


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Amy
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2010, 10:28:53 AM »

I guess it cuts both ways, when I was in Brum, it was hard to get a decent uninterupted nights sleep because of the constant car and building alarm noise.

But, it goes further than that, I once phoned the police to complain about the rag and bone men who were round the streets 2 and 3 times a day with loud hailers and tooting horns.
The bimbo on the switchboard told me it was a council matter, so I told her it was an offence under the road traffic act to sound a horn unneccesarily and to deal with it.
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GavinA
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 12:36:56 PM »

Amy,

I'm no new labour apologist, but most of tbe laws quoted are actually pretty sensible when looked at in context, and I'm bored, so here they are in context.

• Carrying grain on a ship without a copy of the International Grain Code on board
do you want grain you're going to eat to be carried in unregulated cargo ships that could previously have been carrying anything from coal to municipal waste, and need to be thoroughly cleaned and sanitised prior to carry grain according to the standards set out in the International Grain Code? Pretty difficult to be sure a ship's meeting the standards if there's not a copy of the code on board wouldn't you say, or do you not care about eating rotten, contaminated grain?

• Shining a light at an aircraft to dazzle or distract the pilot
Relates mainly to idiots shining laser pens at planes on take off or landing approaches, dazzling them, and causing them to be unable to properly see the landing lights they need to line up with in order to ensure a safe landing. If you don't think this should be an offence, preumably you think it's perfectly ok for people to endanger the lives of planeloads of passengers for shits and giggles?

• Unauthorised fishing in the Lower Esk River
you think people should be allowed to fish our rivers totally unregulated until there are no fish left?

• Obstructing an authorised person from inspecting apple, pear, peach or nectarine orchards for the purposes of ascertaining whether grubbing up has been carried out
From what I can tell, from reading the act, this relates to farmers who'd received payments from EU/Government funds under the previous tory government to grub up their unused orchards, with an obligation placed on them not to then replant orchards on their land for at least 15 years after the funding was granted. This regulation allowed the government to actually check that the work they'd paid for had actually been done, and that the farmer was complying with the undertaking they'd given not to replant an orchard within 15 years.

Whether or not paying people to grub up orchards is a good idea is a different argument, but giving people a lot of money to do something, without giving yourself powers to check they have actually done it would be pretty stupid don't you think?

• Failure to attend a hearing by a bus lane contravention adjudicator
Do you approve of bus lanes? If so, presumably you'd accept that they need to be enforced otherwise they'd not work...

• As a merchant shipping officer, falsely claiming a door is closed and locked
In the event that a ship capsized / sprang a leak etc someone having falsely claimed a door had been closed and locked when it hadn't could easily result in a ship sinking that wouldn't otherwise have sunk / or sinking much faster than it should have done. Do you like seeing people drown?

• Selling non-native species such as a grey squirrel, ruddy duck or Japanese knotweed
Invasive species that are rapidly out competing our native species, leading to their decline and likely extinction unless massively expensive efforts to save them are successful. Or causing huge amounts of damage to land they contaminate eg japanese knotweed that's such a problem it can grow through tarmac, and IIRC concrete, meaning that where it invades building sites etc it can lead to the entire top soil having to be removed and replaced as the only way to get rid of it. Not allowing people to continue to import and sell such species would seem to me to be a sensible first step to tackling the problem at source, but feel free to attempt to defend you position of continuing to allow people to sell these problematic species without restrictions.

• Obstructing workers carrying out repairs to the Docklands light railway
no idea what this is about, but it sounds reasonably sensible to not allow people to obstruct people repairing a railway system, and presumably was a part of the act that enabled the DLR extension to be built.

• Keeping a dog on a lead longer than a maximum length in a designated area n
I'm not sure what this is about exactly, but where it says 'dogs must be kept on a lead' it would seem sensible to define what is meant by a lead, including a maximum acceptable length for a lead.

• Using an automatic rail-weighbridge which has a disqualification sticker on it
if it wasn't specified as being illegal, then truckers would be perfectly entitled to use out of order weighbridges, and dodgy transport companies wanting to get around the weight restrictions would simply find and use weighbridges that weren't supposed to be being used because they were giving a false reading or something.

• Not having a licence for a church concert
This is actually not having a license for a public concert anywhere, not just churches, though that does also apply to churches. Churches don't just hold occasional choir recitals, some act in the same was as community centres in hosting regular concerts, theatre shows, and being hired out to outside organisations for all sorts of uses, so why churches should be exempted from regulations designed to ensure adequate fire escapes, toilet provision, emergency lighting etc. and that they don't cause excessive noise problems for their neighbours baffles me (speaking as someone who spent 10 years organising festivals and events).


I'm sure labour did put a lot of unnecessary stuff on the statute book, but those examples say more about the person using them than the labour government IMO (as a non labour voter, and campaigner against a fair few of their policies). ie that you're happy to repost badly researched sub UKIP stuff without actually subjecting it to any actual critical analysis of your own. Unfortunately this alone undermines the rest of your argument, which is a shame, because labour has done a lot to harm our civil liberties, just not really through any of the examples you give. Or maybe I'm just brainwashed.

Oh, and I just noticed you've linked to alex jones... Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 12:38:53 PM by GavinA » Logged

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noelsquibb
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 11:11:11 PM »

Gavin

Amy seems to be pretty fired up regarding our perceived loss of freedoms .

I kept away from this thread and at mespilus' suggestion went looking for nectarine orchards  angel

As for there being good reasons for laws,  they always seem to be made so they can apply to others.

Do you suppose making it illegal is going to stop feral yoofs from shining lasers at planes or lobbing stuff from road and rail bridges ?

Children quickly learn the difference between right and wrong but we no longer seem to feel any social responsibility if we do wrong.
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2010, 09:35:33 AM »

Thing is Gavin, you have highlighted the handful of sensible laws which we DO need for the greater good.
I think some are still too lax and yoofs shining lasers at aircraft or dropping bricks off bridges should be subject to a shoot to kill policy on the spot, but -

There are many other laws which im sure are there to protect the interests of those who dont have our best interrests at heart.
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GavinA
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 11:37:36 AM »

Hold on Amy, I didn't highlight any laws, you highlighted all those laws, and I took the entire list you'd highlighted and gave explanations for them.

If you're wanting to campaign against erosion of our civil liberties, great, I'm right their beside you, but to be effective you really need to target your anger more carefully rather than repeating what basically is (if I remember right) an ill thought out UKIP inspired rant that carefully manages to actually miss the vast majority of the worst civil liberties destroying stuff that New Labour did, presumably because so far it's mostly been used against groups in our society other than the little englanders that UKIP wants to appeal to.

If you're serious about campaigning to protect civil liberties in this country, then I don't see how you can do it without starting with at least some of the issues below. To follow up your Nazi comparison... first they came for the muslims / immigrants / environmental protestors etc.

Some of the key issues IMO...

28 days detention without trial. Basically anyone the security services or police chose to accuse of being a terrorist can be locked up on their say so for a month, without their solicitors even being allowed to know what the evidence is against them. A month of solid questioning in high security police stations with absolutely no idea what the evidence is supposed to be against you is enough to achieve false confessions, as well as destroying the lives and reputations of large numbers of totally innocent people who return to their homes broken, with their names tarnished, jobs gone etc.

Control orders - for those that the state hasn't got enough evidence against to charge, they can now impose control orders that amount to house arrest, with no possibility of being able to work, as working from home would generally entail the use of a phone and /or the internet which are prohibited, all for an indeterminate amount of time, and the victim isn't even allowed to know what the evidence against them is supposed to be - totally in breach of Habeas corpus, our most ancient of civil liberties rights.

Complicity in CIA extraordinary rendition programme, resulting in the kidnapping and transport of so called terror suspects (often later proven to be totally innocent) to CIA prisons for water boarding and other interrogation techniques that amount to cruel and unusual punishment, and if that fails, in many cases further flights to be handed over to countries that use the old fashioned electrocution, toe nail pulling out form of torture.

Locking up of asylum seekers, and other immigrants including entire families with children of all ages for periods of years in some cases for no good reason other than to appease the daily mail.

and then there's the laws designed to restrict the right to protest, and harass anyone who dares to put their heads above the parapet and actually protest in a manor that's not just an a-b march, as outlined in this pretty good article today

Section 44 of the Terrorism Act (2000), for example, allows police to stop and search anyone within a designated area.
Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, which ban protest outside parliament without prior permission from the police
Protection from Harassment Act (1997), a law introduced to protect vulnerable women from stalkers but which is instead used by companies who want to create protest no-go zones near their premises
Police and Justice Act (2006). This legal tweak allows police to impose bail conditions on a person before they are charged, and is now widely used against environmental campaigners. It is not uncommon for police to arrest high-profile activists several days before a demonstration, never actually charge them, but use the law to impose "conditions" to prevent them from taking part.


that's without mentioning the worst human rights violation of them all, namely the launching of illegal wars of aggression, for which I sincerely hope to live to see Tony Blair stand trial one day when the international criminal court finally get's agreement on it's procedures that would enable this to happen.
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MR GUS
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 12:11:57 PM »

+1 ...GavinA
very true.
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 02:17:01 PM »

+1 ...GavinA
very true.
I concur.
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 07:23:19 PM »

Me three. 
  signofcross
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Rooster
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2010, 04:13:31 PM »

I think the point you all missed was that those sorts of offences were already capable of being dealt with within the existing law, there was no need to create a long list of new laws to try and deal with an unending list of possible individual crimes.

A lot of these new laws just create confusion and sadly suffer from poor definition and 'Mission Creep' to such an extent that everyday people going about everyday business find themselves 'technically' committing an offence.

I believe that once you criminalise individuals for doing everyday things society suffers a downturn, and of course once your a criminal what's the point in even trying to stay on the right side of the Law.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2010, 04:29:14 PM »

Thank you Rooster, I knew there was some method in my amnesia.  banghead

It goes to show how pathetic and feeble labour were, thinking the answer was to make new laws rather than get tough up close and personal and use existing ones.  The only time they pretended to get tough was through the agencies they created and through taxation.
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mespilus
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2010, 10:38:02 PM »



I kept away from this thread and at mespilus' suggestion went looking for nectarine orchards  angel


Did you find any?

It does seem strange, looking back on 13 years of NuLabour (mis-?)rule
to see that each successive Home Secretary appeared to measure his effectiveness
by the heft of his own Justice Bill.

Wasn't there a pressure group back in the '90's lobbying for Judicial balance:
for each new law an old superceded law had to be removed?
This was partly to ensure that the body of Laws did not grow beyond the
comprehension of the 'common man',
and,
to ensure that new offences were dealt with under existing legislation.

I think the 'Dangerous Dogs Act' was their pet bugbear,
and,
as it has turned out,
this Kenneth Clarke, (yes our new Lord Chancellor), inspired bit of knee-jerk
legislation is broadly ignored by the criminal fraternity,
and more appallingly,
barely enforced by the Boys in Blue.
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2010, 12:25:00 AM »

Theyve all gone except this one, which seems to have got quite a lot into a 15m x 30m plot -
I wonder if very small dogs are allowed  Undecided


Redland Green Community Orchard, Redland Green Allotments, Redland Green Park, Redland, Bristol. A small orchard of 15m x 30m planted in 2005 on unused plots at Redland Green Allotments, Bristol. The plots are leased from Bristol City Council by Redland Green Community Orchard Group. It is surrounded by a stream and a copse, and working allotment plots. Half standard trees of apple, pear, plum, quince and damson have been planted, along with apricots, peach, nectarine, grapes and fig in a polytunnel. The crop is still small but will be shared amongst members as it increases. The orchard is managed organically. There is a pond with native plant species that attracts newts, darter and hawker dragonflies, frogs and water boatmen. Nest boxes, woodpiles, new hedgerows and compost heaps, all hoped to encourage wild life. There are foxes, slowworms and many species of bird including sparrowhawk, green woodpecker, jays, crows, magpies, blue tits, great tits and long tailed tits. Also comma, marbled white and other butterflies. There are monthly work days and more events will be planned when the orchard becomes more established. Access is limited to allotment holders who all have keys to the gates.
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