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Author Topic: Advice on making a small (trial) permanent magnet motor / alternator  (Read 2558 times)
Clive_
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« on: July 21, 2010, 05:28:57 PM »

Hi,

I am after some advice on making a small (trial) permanent magnet motor / alternator.

I generally understand the principles but am still missing a few bits (hmm!)
My intension is to build something a little more useful (powerful) eventually but wanted to try something small scale but a working model until I understand all of the principles involved.

I hear you say – there are plenty of plans on the Web, why ask us!?
Well, because most sites brush over certain aspects assuming that I will already know about the part they didn’t detail (e.g. how many turns to a particular coil; rule of thumb etc).

I would like to know the most ideal (general) construction model / shape to aim for (i.e. horizontal wheel, vertical cylinder and so on (and why)). How many coils to use – inc how many turns to each coil. Also, why to go with that amount of turns etc (so to understand the principle and therefore are able to apply it to a larger project after). How many magnets to use and how to calculate that I am using enough magnets (or large enough magnet) and / or coils. Lastly, assuming that more than one coil is used, when connecting the wires together from the coils, how can I tell (during construction) which side of the coil is generating positive and which is negative (do I judge it by the direction of travel?) – assuming that I would join them together??

If anyone can answer any of the above or have any other suggestions, then it would be great to hear them.

Thanks for your help!

Clive.
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Billy
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 07:31:48 PM »

Hi Clive

I think one thing the boffins will need to know is what and how will it be powered cos the things are built differently depending on rotation speed and stuff.

Billy.

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Navitron 24vx300watt windy thing, 20x47mm toobs,24v Rolls @458ah C5, Victron MultiPlus 3kw inverter/charger, WBS with boiler.
Clive_
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 09:28:35 PM »

Hi,

Ahh,good point!  facepalm

Well, to start with I want to construct something that simply illustrates the main principles so are happy to go with the best advise on that.

Ultimately though, I want to construct a wind powered alternator - one that is capable of charging a 12V battery within a reasonable time frame.

I know that many are using permanent magnet motors as alternators but also know that most of the applicable motors now cost a fortune - even ebay has gone mad.

I am unsure how realistic it is to build a small version of the above though, which is why I said are pretty flexable so long as it helps me understand what I need to make happen and avoid!

Thanks for your help,

Clive.
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Billy
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 10:28:03 PM »

Vertical or horizontal axis?

Billy

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Clive_
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 11:03:09 PM »

Hi,

Vertical ballspin

Clive
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bovnet
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 11:20:29 PM »

from my collage days "flemings right hand rule"
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dhaslam
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 11:27:27 PM »

It is quite hard to make a generator that works at the slow revolutions of a vertical axis generator.     Voltage is determined by the number of windings in the coil and it needs very big numbers to get any sort of decent voltage.  Also strong magnets.   Even then it may be difficult to reach the efficiency of a factory made one.   The coil side of the generator has to be static because of connections so the magnets are moving.  One advantage of the VAWTs is that they don't rotate quickly so it is less likely that the magnets will be displaced.


http://www.instructables.com/id/Faroun-Savonius-Wind-Turbine/step13/Faroun-3-phase-coil-test-20awg-50-winds-Final/
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Clive_
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 11:54:54 PM »

Hi,

Thank you both.

So according to flemings right hand rule, if its spinning clockwise, then the positive charge will be via the left coil tail and the tail to the right will therefore be negative (motion to the right, F in front of me and I to the left)??

Regarding vertical or horizontal: I see distinct advantages to a horizontal generator and horizontal rotating movement overall, but assume for a WT I would then need to add a gearing system, which would in turn cause a loss of power?

Coil windings: using average homemade WTs as a general baseline, what is classed as a reasonable number of coils and what constitutes a large numbers of winding per coil please? Following from that, is there a rule of thumb regarding the amount of coils or windings used Vs the amount and / or strength of the magnets used?

Regarding the magnets - yes, I noticed during general research that a few people have set the magnets and the coils in resin (differing types) for stability. Accepting that precautions have to be taken in some form (a good restraint method) have any of you views on the use of resins? Are they likely to work fine provided you limit the amount covering the working side of the magnets / coils to an extreme minimum (to prevent loss of energy?) but layer the upper edges; or are there more ideal methods?

Clive.
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dhaslam
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2010, 01:05:25 AM »

Magnet strength is important and the number of magnets.    This website gives an approximate calculation.   

http://www.6pie.com/faradayslaw.php
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Clive_
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 01:31:32 AM »

Hi,

Thanks for the link.

Clive.
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fred bloggs
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 09:22:15 AM »

Clive

You could have a look at Hugh Piggott's home page as he is an expert on PMG , and there are free downloadable plans for the alternator and loads of stuff on blades etc.

The link for the alternator plans are http://www.scoraigwind.com/pmgbooklet/index.htm and the top level link to his website is http://www.scoraigwind.com/

I brought his book a couple of years ago and found it very informative and "cheap" I also believe he is a member of this forum.

You could also try this site in the states,  they base alot of their wind stuff on Hugh's designs http://www.otherpower.com/

Enjoy the reading Grin

Best regards

Fred
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guydewdney
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 10:35:44 AM »

I was going to build one from an AC induction motor, by cutting down the rotor and 'gluing' on hundreds of magnets to create a 20+ pole ac generator. I have decided not to bother - but still have a small pile of small rare earth magnets - about 1" x 0.5" x 0.125" (25 x 12 x 3mm) if its of interest. They glue planes together - why not generators? There are some impresive glues out there - dont just buy araldite from b&q! Go to a decent engineering supplier, and order something from 3M / loctite (call the tech helplines?)
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Finlay
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 08:26:59 PM »

If this is for a vertical axis wind turbine, then you should consider the motor/generator/alternator as part of the system - i.e. bearings, rotation speed, axis size and whether you want direct drive or a reduction drive.

If you want something that is going to be relatively efficient I would recommend direct drive.  This means that you want a large diameter rotor or a fast rotational speed.   Fortunately it is relatively simple to make a 3-phase generator from permanent magnets and some copper wire, but there are some general principles you should follow to make it simple.  (3-phase means that you generate 3 sine waves equally spaced out.  You rectify this and end up with a pretty smooth DC voltage, which is the same polarity regardless of which way the generator spins)

The basic shape to construct that is relatively easy to get to work is two discs.  there are other configurations, some of which can be easier to make depending on the construction of the axis, but 2 discs facing each other is simple to imagine so this is what I will use to explain.

One disc (call it the stator) is static i.e. attached to ground if you like.  This disc has coils of copper wound in a particular shape attached to it, often by encapsulating in a ring of resin.   The resin has an advantage of mechanical protection from the elements and external moving objects, but it does have a negative side of thermal insulation.  The copper coils will get warm as you draw power from the generator.  The more exposed you can make the copper coils to any circulating air the better.

The other disc (call it the rotor) is attached to the rotating axle, and holds the magnets.   This should be made of steel with the magnets attached magnetically to the steel disc.  These magnets generally stay where they are, but will have a strong tendency to move together during assembly.  The most important point is that with high speed comes high forces trying to fling the magnets off the disc.  You must take care to ensure that the magnets cannot fling themselves off outwards.   The easiest way to do this is by having a step that the magnets sit inside.

The discs can be made of wood for trials.   You really want a steel plate under the back of the magnets.  This steel plate 'magnetically' couples the magnets together round the back and increases the power that you can get from the generator.  This magnet disc (rotor) assembly must be mounted so that it faces the stator disc (the coils) with a small gap (2-3mm max).  You must be capable of balancing the rotating disc and making sure it runs truly.  This is the advantage of 'borrowing' an existing axle from something that already has a plate of some sort that sits perpendicular to the axle.

If you feel that this is something you can deal with then I can expand on all of the technical details such as calculating wire thickness, ways to mount the coils, what type of magnets, and how many etc in another post.  The benefit of a 3-phase design is that it is efficient, compact, and is dead easy to wire up as a generator to give a DC voltage independant of which way the rotor is spinning.  The hardest part is really sorting out the bearings and the discs. 

Many motors have steel (iron) in both the rotor and the stator.  If you had a steel disc behind the coils you would get more power for less speed with your design (the efficiency may not be any better), but you would also get some absolutely terriffic axial forces that could take the tips of your fingers off when you try and assemble it.  Using a non-magnetic plate to mount the coils on is much easier to manage.

Hope this has been of interest to you...
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Finlay
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2010, 12:27:33 AM »

Here is part two.   You were asking about the wiring in particular, and I guess I strayed a bit off topic with constructional techniques.   The wiring starts with deciding how much voltage you want to generate and at what maximum speed.  Like motors, generators generate a voltage in proportion to thier speed.  The current they draw (for a motor) or supply (for a generator) depends on the external torque.  For example a generator spinning at 1000 rpm might generate 20V but no current will flow through the coils until an electrical load is applied to the generator output.  The voltage varies with speed, while the current varies with external torque.  Winding resistance smudges this ideal a little bit but this can be practically ignored.

Other snippets of information are;
The voltage generated across the output is also proportional to the number of turns in the coils. 
The current that is generated by an external torque is also proportional to the number of turns in the coils. 

The power you can generate from your generator depends on how much copper you have managed to pack into your coils.  You can have lots of turns of a thin wire or fewer turns of a thick wire.  if the volume of copper is the same in both circumstances then the power output will be the same.  The difference is how the power output is best transferred to the outside world.  Thin wire = high voltage, low current; thick wire = low voltage, high current.  Once you have decided where on the scale you want to be you can design a coil set. 

For a prototype around the 200W range I would think about using 0.4-0.6mm diameter wire for windings with a flat disc generator diameter of around 200-300mm.  for a 3-phase generator you want 1.5 times the number of coils than magnets, in multiples of 3 coils; i.e. 6 coils and 4 magnets, or 15 coils and 10 magnets etc.  The magnets are positioned in alternating polarity N-S, S-N, N-S etc all the way round.  The way to check this when offerring up a magnet to its position in the ring is that it should be repelled by its neighbour when held above it.  It will be attracted by its neighbour once it is positioned on the plate though so be careful.   A good starting point for a gap between the magnets is around 1-2x the magnet thickness.  Make the magnet thickness no more than 20% of its width, or efficiency will suffer.  You may be able to buy arc segment magnets off the shelf which are approximately right for your generator.  For a prototype round discs are OK or rectangular blocks could be used.  If this is the case then make the gap between the magnets virtually zero round the inner diameter of the magnet ring and keep the magnets approximately square in shape.  You can buy very powerful NdFeB rare earth magnets these days, so cheaper grades are readily available.  Buy them nickel coated so that they don't corrode.

Your coils should be wound all in the same direction on your production line to avoid confusion.  Make them no taller than about 20% of the magnet width, again for efficiency purposes. For the coil width make them roughly square in section.  The more copper the more power, but you start to compromise efficiency if you try and pack in too much.  Your coil shape should be trapezoidal with the length of the radial sides just about as long as the magnet.  You can buy auto-bonding transformer wire that has a heat activated glue coating the outside of the wire.   make a former for winding the coil and when wound, put a heat gun on it for a coule of minutes and it will bond itself together.   Watch the temperature though, and let it cool a little before removing.  This way you dont mess around with messy glue, and it is quicker to make the coils.

Try and make the air gap between the magnets and the coils small.  If it is too small they will rub, and the magnets will smudge the copper from offending wires across neighbouring wires causing shorting and a right old mess.  Too big a gap though and you lift the coils out of the magnetic field of the magnets and reduce efficiency.  Wiring up the coils is not too difficult.  If you have 6 coils, then make 3 pairs, so 1 and 4 are wired together, 2 and 5 are wired together and so on.  (you can wire them in series or paralell - this is one place you can tune the generator to match the ouput you want)  If you have more coils just connect them in 3 sets.   Next connect the inside ends of any two sets to the outside end of the third set, and the three remaining ends (2 outside ends and 1 inside end) are the generator phase outputs.   Look up a 3-phase rectifier circuit such as http://www.opamp-electronics.com/tutorials/images/semiconductor/03267.png to work out how to connect them to the outside world.

a 3-phase generator sounds complicated but it is very easy to make an efficient one and there are no contacts, brushes etc to wear.  Good luck!
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Clive_
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 01:01:23 AM »

Hi,

Thank you all for your input so far (especially Finlay); it has been extremely helpful and is starting to make more sense.

Can I check about wiring the coils though please: Are you saying to wire the + and - from 1 and 3 together, 2 and 5 then 3 and 6? If so, and that leaves me with 3 sets of two coils wired together, how do I wire the final configuration? Do I simply add the three + and three - leaving me with a single + and - output (which connection wise means all positives and all negatives from all 6 coils are wired together; and if so, why not just wire them all together in the first place?) or am I missing it completely?

Thank you again  Smiley

Clive.
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