200mm Its my roof !!!

[stuartiannaylor]

Just wondered if any one thinks that the maximum of a 200mm protrusion from your roof plane requiring planning permission, is it an aesthetic god send or an innovation and application hindrance?

If you wish to employ green technologies and increase pitch angle, add mirrors or even a new idea should this be increased in the arena of green products?

Stuart

[wyleu]

With the current interest in renewables, it would take an extraordinarily hostile attitude or decision for them to actually force you to take down an installation. Its best to write a courteous letter to the Planning authority, reminding them of the relaxed attitude to renewables and requesting an acknowlegement to confirm that you are ok to proceed without planning permission.

Till something falls off and lands on someone or something. Swivellable and removable sounds like a recipe for disaster during high winds.

[djh]

However, I also had a leftover planning permission allowing me to have solar panels laid at an angle to the wall, i.e. coming about about a metre from the wall if i wanted. so I can come out a metre. this is valid until 2013.

That raises an interesting question. You can move your sunboxes out a bit and thereby implement the planning permission (or is it exercise or validate or some other word?). And if I understand the planning system correctly, once you've implemented it, it's valid forever. So I think you could then move them back to where they were secure in the knowledge that you could move them out again at a later time if you wished.

In which case, how many seconds would you have to keep them projecting to ensure your future rights?

[rhys]

However, I also had a leftover planning permission allowing me to have solar panels laid at an angle to the wall, i.e. coming about about a metre from the wall if i wanted. so I can come out a metre. this is valid until 2013.

That raises an interesting question. You can move your sunboxes out a bit and thereby implement the planning permission (or is it exercise or validate or some other word?). And if I understand the planning system correctly, once you've implemented it, it's valid forever. So I think you could then move them back to where they were secure in the knowledge that you could move them out again at a later time if you wished.

In which case, how many seconds would you have to keep them projecting to ensure your future rights?

I suspect not - once moved back they would in effect have been demolished. The rebuilding would need a new planning permission, unless permitted development!!

[djh]

I suspect not - once moved back they would in effect have been demolished. The rebuilding would need a new planning permission, unless permitted development!!

Drat!

[Justme]

Leave them 201mm out then.

[wyleu]

Perhaps they could take some pictures of the sensors whilst they are there?

[camillitech]

Perhaps they could take some pictures of the sensors whilst they are there?

Wyleu, thanks for another smite there. i noticed it.

What exactly is a picture of a sensor? A thermocouple is a piece of green and white twisted cable of two metals, microwelded at the absolute tip, to be done properly needs to be done under magnification (some people just crimp the ends with some extreme force using pliers). they are buried under 19mm of foam insulation. Not easily photographed.

But I also told you, I am not bothered to impart information to people who smite.

Don't let that stop you CTE, Wyleu often smites people he likes  and anyway I'd like to see them too.

Cheers, Paul

[wyleu]

Ok let's sort a couple of things out.

I didn't smite you.
It was someone else.
If you want I'll supply wireshark stats on my outgoing tc/pip connection to prove the case. I will also provide ntp records to prove my time keeping is accurate. To lend credence to the stats I will supply network drawings to explain my connections and log records from my router.  Now you can believe this or not and it is entirely reliant on my say so and I could, of course, altered the figures. Who is to say?
Well if this was an issue of national importance the court would request/demand the records from my ISP who would provide similar statistics. If the two match my results are exonerated, if they differ then my credibility is shot to bits and I will have to reconstruct what little reputation I have around here.

Now that is measurement. at the very least it is a set of numbers and letters and unless I adopt various well known techniques for proving the data hasn't been corrupted or modified it relies heavily on my own personal credibility.

And yet there is more.
I may make statements which are wrong, hindered by my lack of understanding or based on some erroneous assumption. The measurements will once again find me out because the conclusions I draw from them will, at some point, clash with the data. Once again an embarrassed wyleu, but my credibility will probably be on the whole less damaged than the first case. I have made a genuine mistake and If I am suitably contrite people's attitude to me might actually increase because I have acknowledged my failing.

But these two cases rely on something else. The Context of the measurement.

This is where my irritation ( I think it has got to that state ) with your approach really arises.
Someone pushes a fair bit of CAD around and you certainly preach an almost endless stream of fans, admirers. Top this off with all the external trappings of academia and a certain delight in self publicity and we could almost have a bandwagon. Except when it comes to detail.

And that is what I would like to see.

I know what a sensor looks like. I'm also fully aware of how much can go wrong between the physical quantity that is being measured and the carefully crafted graph and by extension the conclusions drawn from it.
It is the context of your system I would like to see.

Photographs provide details you seem unwilling or unable to supply.

How good is your plumbing?,
How well do you apply insulation?,
are your pipe runs level?,
What is adjacent to your pipes and sensors? Cold walls, Warm pipes or mains electricity...
How good is your wiring?
What connectors do you use?

...and you can be sure photos will prompt many other issues and questions.

That is how this process works, it's similar to peer review which, surely, with you academic background you should be used to.
Remarks like 'what exactly is a sensor?' don't increase a peer respect, In fact it would seem to indicate that you really aren't in control of this system. You don't have access to your measurement equipment in what is described a experimental rig? That rings alarm bells. Perhaps you are different to your peers around here but if one can generalize people are very willing, in fact almost overly so, to show their handwork. Why are you so different? Are we not considered peers? or is that only reserved for people who don't smite you?

No doubt this will anger you, and you will probably react with indignation. This does not help your cause. The level of smiting is an indication of the communities reaction to your approach and your credibility will be further undermined. I have a 30 tube R&D array on my south facing gable and as a result have a little experience of the performance and some of the problems. I'd be interested to know how much shadowing you get during winter. Certainly it's an issue that can significantly reduce performance. But how can I know? I don't know the context.

Sadly, since it seems to be you and many undeclared supporters in one corner and several people I respect in the other, I will continue to place you in the second category of individuals with a claim until you provide something that seems to be more than bluster or self promotion.


Chris@wyleu

Now you can have that smite.

[hiccup]

That does it!  I can't help myself..

5. Well the wiring works. The thermostats, sensors, indicator lights etc. With wiring, it has to work.

New law of physics "With wiring, it has to work." 

6. I solder ALL wire ends, whether for 13 amp wiring, or thin wire for indicator lights.

 

So you are Competent to modify a heating system, because... you solder "ALL wire end, whether for 13 amp wiring, or thin wire for indicator lights"

Next you'll tell us that the thermocouples are soldered to the pipes for good thermal contact  . (If I need to explain why this would be bad you don't understand how thermocouples work)


Sorry, but I'm with Chris - poor evidence and far too much promotion - time I had a word with a certain newspaper editor perhaps...

Hic

[Ted]

On the specific issue of soldering wire ends you should perhaps be aware of what BS7671:2008 says on the matter:

526.8.2 Soldering (tinning) of the whole conductor end of multiwire, fine wire and very fine wire conductors is not permitted if screw terminals are used.

and

526.8.3 Soldered (tinned) conductor ends of fine wire and very fine wire conductors are not permissible at connection and junction points which are subject in service to a relative movement between the soldered and the non-soldered part of the conductor.

[hiccup]

Thanks Ted - didn't have my copy of 7671 to hand.

And CTE - just because you connect something electrically does not mean it will work.  Electricity can kill - water, unless you stick your head in it, just makes you wet.

My competency with electricity (and electronics) is not in doubt, not only am I a Chartered Engineer, but also until I recently chose not to renew the exorbitantly expensive Part P registration, was registered under the governments Competent Persons scheme for all domestic electrical works.

Nuf said - but I'll continue to troll if it helps people question what you claim.

Hic!

[EccentricAnomaly]

Thanks Ted.  I used to solder wire ends going into screw terminals many years ago until I read that it was a bad idea because the soldered part could relax slowly so the screw would lose its grip.  I'm glad to hear that the wiring regulations back this up.

[hiccup]

Sorry but you don't seem able to read/comprehend:

I wrote

until I recently chose not to renew the exorbitantly expensive Part P registration

you wrote

even though it seems that your registering authority deems you Not Competent

As you do not know who I am or which scheme holder I registered with you are making an accusation which you cannot prove. It is false anyway as I still hold all the credential, knowledge and experience to join any scheme I choose if I deem it necessary.

Installing or modifying the controls of a heating system falls under the Part P building regulations so I guess you have the electrical installation certificates to document the changes made and tests performed. And as you have said you have done the wiring I guess you paid building control to come and inspect it.  

The temperature measurement product by the way was a programmable (universal input) head mounted temperature transmitter, but this was developed 20 or so years ago and they've only just recently stopped selling it. And it was +/- 0.01C accuracy, far better than the sensors themselves. The details were even published in a professional journal.

I've not asked for pictures either, that was Chris - I just wanted to see the data from the dataloggers, but now I've checked what they are, I don't care. Data won't be accurate enough to be valid. I also share Chris's concern that you do not seem to have access to the data yourself.

I've never claimed to have sensors or data on my system (even though I do have sensors and data), but you have claimed to have the sensors and data and yet get twitchy when people (not just me) ask for it.


Back to the OP subject...

You've said your panels can be tilted away from the wall, but if you did that you would have to put backs on them - further reducing the "heat they can collect! That said it would be an interesting exercise because it might indicate if there is any effect of gain from the brick wall. The mountings had better be good though, otherwise the wind is going to turn them into metal edged WMDs.


Oh and soldering the ends of any mains wiring that is terminated into screw terminals is a no no - not just where there can be movement.

Ho hum.

Hic

[guydewdney]

That does it!   I can't help myself..

5. Well the wiring works. The thermostats, sensors, indicator lights etc. With wiring, it has to work.

New law of physics "With wiring, it has to work."  

6. I solder ALL wire ends, whether for 13 amp wiring, or thin wire for indicator lights.

 

With wiring, that is a law of physics. If the copper wires and soldered connections work, they work, if there is a poor connection they dont, and the light or pump doesnt come on. Its not like plumbing that can get airlocks. I guess you are judging by the quality of your own electrics. Sputtering lights, loud bangs and blinding flashes. Like the way you write to me on this forum.
Sir, you are behaving like a  

Twaddle!

I am an ex aerospace / military / traction electrical contact design engineer. I have several patents to my name. I worked for a multinational where i reported directly to the group (world) technical director. I have contacts on the new A380 (I think - I left for pastures new as it was being decided). Not in the engine!

Contacts dont 'just work' wether they are soldered, or spring based. Bad soldered joints (which, to be honest, I have done my fair share of) slowly corrode, causing larger and larger resistances twixt the two elements. If you measure with a normal multimeter, it would probably show minimal resistance- but with increasing current, or greater sensitivity of sensor, the errors become more and more relevant.

Electricity doesnt just flow or not flow - that is what resistors are. Bad connections are resistors. My own solar panels have suffered from the same issue - causing oddly high sensed temps, when it was just a (bodged, temporary  ) connection that was causing the faulty measurements. We all make mistakes - there is no shame in admitting them - god - look back at some of all of our early posts - naive to say the least! The suggestion here is that simple connections could make your readings erronous - it might be worth a) checking them, b) havign a peer review......