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Author Topic: 200mm Its my roof !!!  (Read 2569 times)
Justme
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 11:09:12 PM »

The original subject of this thread was Planning permission for units that project more than 200mm.



Thats the thing about the internet.



Once you start a thread you have no control (or ownership) over which way it goes.

Very very few threads stay on track for long.
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Navitron solar thermal system
30 x 58mm panel 259L TS
1200watts solar 120vdc
FX80 Solar controller
Victron 12v 3000w 120a
200w (250w peak) 12v turbine as a tester
6kva genny
6 x 2v cells 1550amp/h 5C
24 x 2v cells 700amp/h 5C
Total bank 4350 amp/h @12v
wyleu
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 08:21:20 AM »

Oh well here goes nothing...

There is a record of my exploits with my 29/30 tubes on a gable wall. It details a fair bit of the various problems and successes and also demonstrates a fair few of my own personal failings. Quite how one drills holes for 28mm pipe accurately at strange but precise angles through the sort of cast off seconds brick that architects and builders chose back in the early 80's is an exercise in futility I would wish on very few but that is how one learns. You might wonder where this story is? Well surprisingly it's on this forum!

Now, I have my vanities, as do we all, and I wouldn't expect people to have read the forum from cover to cover, but one hopes that a little of the flavour might have developed by now and so when people talk on particular subjects, it is often with a world weary shrug one realises that the same old ideas have once again surfaced. Now on most forum this isn't too much of a problem, it's just personalities after all, and we're all fairly new to this Internet thing ( It could hardly be said to have managed 20 years of general use yet ) so we dwell, complacent in the rightfulness of our own approach, are jealous of our betters and either complacent or dismissive or those we see as inferior in some way. The Navitron forum, however, has slight differences all of it's own.
Firstly a great vote of thanks to one individual, Ivan, for setting it up, and sticking with it. He has walked a very difficult tightrope, massively changing situations and it is important to remember our debt to both him and the company behind him. And that is where things are different, This is an altruistic endeavor on the side of a commercial enterprise in an area of increasing interest offering independent advice in an area increasingly beset by snake-oil salesmen and weaselly wasters of time and effort.

It might surprise people that we are not constantly fighting off the channeled energy and ley line communities, certainly there is enough people out there who think that if one were to believe hard enough then things might just happen, but since we have people round here who, when faced with a crystal tend to ask about it's refractive index, we tend to be keep the discussion pretty scientific.

What this boils down to is try to extract the actual from the imagined. Electrons don't worry about the colour of the insulation they travel under, water will find it's own level even if this is all over the bathroom floor and Thermodynamics cares not a fig for our sensibilities. So just because someone, however qualified, says it's the case, the actual physical effects that are being described will blunder on regardless.

What David claims to have managed is another perpetual energy machine. He's in some pretty good company http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/people/people.htm, but at the end of the day he claims to be warming himself at the expense of , well what...? Could it be the warmth of his wall? could it be temperature of the soil in the garden? I don't know, but certainly any attempt to refine the question is being met with increasingly aggressive responses. Sadly this is another characteristic of the Perpetual energy community. The  reference to  their own integrity over provable data and the anger are recognised characteristics http://www.ka9q.net/crackpots/index.html.

And there in lies the community skepticism. Because I don't believe this is a malicious hoax, I believe it's simply an individual outside of his own area of expertise, worried because he has started to realize some of the flaws. Having re-read the 'mirrors' thread in light of the beast it has become, I'm surprised by how much consideration was given. The original premise of mirrors seems to have moved from the top to the bottom upon suggestion, and it is interesting to note both Martin and myself worried about wind blowing things off, independently, but the overriding approach has been similar to a spoilt child, I'll take  my toys away if you don't play my way, wait till winter is over and how dare you question me?, cos I've got lots of massive projects waiting, and you'll loose all these orders if you don't act nice.

There does seem to be a certain credence in some of the concepts, supported by outwardly similar projects elsewhere, but it would not be the first occasion when revolutionary schemes have generated enough momentum to make themselves almost self sustaining, but in the end the laws of thermodynamics find them out.For precident one only ha to cross Westminster bridge and consider the building in the centre of the roundabout there ( it might have gone now, it's been a while since I've been to W1 ) . An eco-folly by the GLC that was uninhabitable from its first day.
This may seem cruel, I could have used far stronger language, so it is moderated in some senses but the overall impression is irrelevant. Until something is presented that is considerably more precise than stock industry pictures of data gathers and measurements that are actually relevant it will be necessary to treat this whole area with considerable skepticism. That is sad. David obviously has skills but, for better or for worse, posting here relies on the assumption that we are all peers and he seems keen to aggregate praise but unwilling or unable to afford respect in return.

Chris@wyleu

I've given him a applaud for effort thou'  signofcross

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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 12:27:09 PM »

Quote
Some of the things you say about my system show that you havent really grasped what I am doing,...

Well, you've got to at least give him credit for trying.  After trying to decipher you're first couple of posts I decided it really wasn't worth the effort.
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 02:48:32 PM »

I'm not being "malicious and personal".  I'm simply trying to say that the way you present things is so muddled and scattered that it's quite difficult to grasp what you're doing.  I'm sure your project is very worthwhile and encourage you to continue with it but would suggest that rather than getting all paranoid when people misunderstand what you're saying you give some thought to expressing yourself more clearly.

In particular, when you make a forum post you can't assume the reader has or will have read through most of the contents of your web site.  If you reference a specific blog post for more details that's fine but a general pointer to the whole site doesn't really help.

The first thread you started illustrates this perfectly.  You described your reflectors without the important context information that they reflect on to the bottom rather than the front surface of the collectors then got a bit sarcastic with the reply "Many thanks to Jonathan for reading the BLOG and seeing how different these are" which rather set the tone of your interaction with the forum since.
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MR GUS
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Officially "Awesome" because Frotter said so!


« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2010, 05:55:45 PM »

Like the idea of the phase changing materials potential  & possible implementation (segment). on your blog .. http://chargingtheearth.blogspot.com/2010/11/phase-change-materials.html (for those wishing to have a "shufty")

On topic:
 Rather than demanding some form of data, I would merely ask the question as to how data collation is going?, over what period to date & when you feel you have enough to examine & share for purposes of taking this forward / useful input from Navi-forum members?

I've oft repeated this & to myself it keeps showing up the advantage of paper versus the page (might be flicker / refresh rates, I know not) but skimming info is part & parcel of "browsing" on a pc compared to the way it's absorbed (imho) on paper, ..akin to always having a print-out before pressing send, the readthrough frequently differs between the 2 mediums..
Everyone would like to see something of this ilk work & be proven before as green tech it faces daily mail type reportage (savaging) that blows with that circle of media vultures wind, but to be onboard & understand, people wish to see elements in order to grasp & offer advice, if you look at other aspects of the forum e.g "show us yours" posters with pics are not opening themselves to ribald comments in the main, it furthers understanding advancement, improvements through tinker time rather than outright damnation on "elf & safety" of ones project, my own wrecking of an innefficient fireplace to a high efficiency stove & use of phenolic material has made me pause & think or simply to seek opinions & reassurance of the members here before each & every step, it's proven a fine sounding board on most occasions.
I don't claim to be super intelligent, my own brain injuries put paid to paper proof of an i.q. very early on, however I feel the level of input here is freely given, given for the right reasons (not specifically referring to this topic) & broad spectrum, if it gives a rough shove forward then so be it, if it disproves theory then it can be looked at from another angle.
"experts" don't necessarily get it right all the time, which is why I spent so much time overhauling the overall product & presenting the problem of material form  & function in a manner that did not upset the creator (on roughly 4x my salary) to be in a position to effect change before they went into production at great cost.
There's alot of pride & ego that go's into making a pudding or a product, however when people ask for a recipe that's flattering, to ask for data / pictures of sensor placement & types used is simple checking over of content & protocol in order to be as clear cut as you can & minimise anything erroneous / rogue.
Asking for photo'sd / info isn't necessarily needling, though backs are evidently rubbed up here which serves no purpose other than delay or mistrust, watering down content & value of updates / progress.
If I were an accountant I'd want to look at the books...
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Austroflamm stove & lot's of Lowe alpine fleeces, & a tiny pen15 ..if we're comparing solar set ups!

Noli Timere Messorem
MR GUS
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Officially "Awesome" because Frotter said so!


« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2010, 07:15:45 PM »

David.
 The "show" area is a general area for apparatus in general, we also have / had an area called "readers stoves" so you will not necessarily shoot yourself by posting in other areas, in fact it would be more welcomed I imagine as a different angle in which to know more of your time spent generally in the renewables area rather than one subject, ..interesting as it is.
Browse the forum more in general & turn off the "notify" aspect of your emails, takes time & energy unclogging what you would doubtless read here later, I guess!?
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Austroflamm stove & lot's of Lowe alpine fleeces, & a tiny pen15 ..if we're comparing solar set ups!

Noli Timere Messorem
tony.
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2010, 10:46:13 PM »

I read all the posts again, and looked at your website,I dont think there is any need for the slagging off of wyleu.

If you dont like the forum, why bother posting and replying.

I for one wont bother reading any more of your threads.
 
Good luck with your projects in the future.

Regards
Tony
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martin
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2010, 11:16:06 AM »

A few dispassionate points - first of all, some earlier threads discussing similar ideas (sadly a few linked pictures are missing due to a server move)

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,352.msg2059.html#msg2059
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,434.msg2617.html#msg2617
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,279.msg7464.html#msg7464
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,957.msg9940.html#msg9940
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1248.msg8563.html#msg8563

I also note that yet again certain comments from this forum have been lifted verbatim, and used on a "blog", including the identities of the posters with no consent having been sought or granted by both those who run the forum, and those "featured" - as Sergeant Wilson would have put it "Is this wise?"  (or good manners?)

As for "personal attacks" - as always, I would exhort everyone to exercise restraint and good manners, however heated a discussion may become - it is probably best to differ with "ideas" rather than personalities - it is entirely in order to point out the flaws in "inventions" or a tenuous grasp of the laws of thermodynamics, but it's best to leave personalities out of it....... Wink
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Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
Ivan
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2010, 03:40:51 PM »

On the subject of the forum, I cannot take credit for this, much as I'd like to.

Martin suggested it to me in the very early days of Navitron. I can remember we were extremely busy and unable to cope with demand for sales, technical support etc etc. Martin suggested the forum as a means of allowing me to deal with technical queries late at night after all the orders had been packed up ready for despatch the following day. He also volunteered to chip in himself - something that he has done consistently to this day, and he suggested that other like-minded people would probably follow on, and it's these people - ie you - who make the forum what it is today. My contribution was limited to saying 'yes' and to paying for the server space/bandwidth.



Let's draw a line under discussions of bodges/hair-brainedness, solar boxes etc.

---------------------------------------------  <- line drawn


Topic relates to 200mm limit for permitted development of solar panels on most house roofs.

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