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Author Topic: Solar PV/Thermal - Typs of light?  (Read 887 times)
fittoburst
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« on: November 29, 2010, 11:07:06 PM »

OK...bit of physics here...just making sure I understand this correctly...

Solar Thermal utilises UV light. Therefore, it works in cloudy conditions (especially evacuated tubes)?
Solar PV utilises visible light. Therefore bright skies are better?

Am I barking here, or on the right tracks?

Thanks

Fitto
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rt29781
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 06:02:29 AM »

Solar thermal use infra red radiation and does not work well in cloudy conditions.  I have 150 tubes on the roof to validate this.  No sun, No heat.  Evac tubes are better in winter than standard thermal panels as they are less affected by the low sun angle.
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A.L.
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2010, 10:44:15 AM »

hello fittoburst,

have to disagree slightly

Quote
Solar thermal use infra red radiation and does not work well in cloudy conditions

About 50% of the sun's output lies at  uv/visible wavelengths, these wavelengths are absorbed by the surface of solar thermal panels and this energy is degraded to heat by the molecules in the surface of the collector. About 1Kw/square metre arrives at ground level and the observed output of solar thermal panels could not be achieved if the energy in UV/Visible wavelengths was not used.

The remaining 50% of the sun's output lies substantially in the 750-1500nm range and is technically 'beyond the red' i.e. infrared but this near-infrared does not correspond to the wavelengths we perceive as heat.

The reasons solar thermal does not work well in cloudy conditions are

a) there is simply less energy available, there may be a slight shift in the relative amounts of each wavelength under cloudy conditions but this effect is small compared to the simple lower energy availability.

b) if the solar collector has any focusing ability, diffuse solar energy, which predominates in cloudy conditions,  cannot be collected efficiently
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fittoburst
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 11:36:44 AM »

A.L.

Thanks for your detailed reply.  What about PV?  Which type of light do they use generate electricity?

/Fitto
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »

Wikipedia has a good diagram of the solar spectrum - which is unfortunately too wide to look sensible put in-line.

As A.L. says the name "infrared" covers a confusingly wide range.  Most of the infrared in sunlight is very short wavelength, only a bit longer than red light and in most ways behaves like visible light except that we can't see it.  This is quite different from the much longer wavelength infrared which is given off by objects at around room temperature - often called thermal IR.

Incidentally, IR remote controls use short wavelength IR.  CMOS cameras are sensitive to these wavelengths as well as visible light and have filters to remove the IR otherwise they'd get odd colour blooms.  Removing the filter then adding other filters to get rid of visible light gives you an IR camera - but not to be confused with the much more expensive thermal IR cameras for the longer wavelengths.  Mobile phones and cheap cameras don't tend to have very good IR filters so can see bright shortwave IR from remote controls.  This can be handy for debugging: it was one of the first tests Henry used to try to see what the problem was with Jane's IR remote controlled helicopter here.

UV is a pretty small part of the total amount of power arriving from the sun.  It's only really worth noting because the individual photons have high enough energy to be biologically damaging (the shorter the wavelength the higher the energy of the photons).

Solar thermal collectors will make use of pretty much all of the available solar radiation.  Depending on their design they may or may not make use of any long-wavelength thermal IR available.  Ones with selective coatings are designed to absorb short wavelength radiation (UV, visible and shortwave IR) but not emit the long-wavelength thermal IR associated with their operating temperatures.  Things which don't emit a given wavelength don't absorb it either so selective coatings lose out on the incoming thermal IR but gain more by not losing energy at these wavelengths.

PV needs photons which are energetic enough to kick electrons through the right quantum levels.  This means they tend to use visible and UV but not much of even the short wavelength part of the IR spectrum.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 12:39:51 PM by EccentricAnomaly » Logged
fittoburst
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 11:24:29 AM »

All.

Thanks for the help.  That's helped me a great deal.

/Fitto.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 06:58:50 PM »

I know its an old thread but it answers most of the obvious questions in respect of pv panels. What I want to know is whether PV panels now use a wider spectrum including infra red. In 2008 Infra red pv panels were near market have they arrived yet or do I use ET for infra red.

Would it be worth using a prism to split off the normal pv panel spectrum from the infra red spectrum so that the normal panel stays cooler.

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rt29781
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 08:16:00 PM »

Looks like what is needed is a reflective filter to get rid of the IR and leave the PV panel cool.

See here:
http://www.erco.com/guide_v2/guide_2/lighting-technology-94/filters-2138/en/intro-1.php
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 08:34:47 PM »

I was looking at a dichroic prism as the pv panel is for 500 to 1000 suns so the IR energy will probably be to high for a reflective filter. Also begs the question what sort of ET panel will handle 500 to 1000 suns.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 08:41:35 PM »

I was looking at a dichroic prism as the pv panel is for 500 to 1000 suns so the IR energy will probably be to high for a reflective filter. Also begs the question what sort of ET panel will handle 500 to 1000 suns.
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