TS Install

[SimonHobson]

Well I suppose it's slightly off-topic for here as there's no renewables involved at all

Anyway, I have a single bed flat that's been rented out - I bought it as it has a large garage and I wanted to buy somewhere I'd be happy to live in when I need it, rather than having to live where I can get at the time. Until that time comes, it's rented out. Of course, it was built in the heyday of "how fast and cheap can we throw up a rabbit hutch" building, and needless to say some aspects of the design leave more than a little to be desired. In particular, they could have had a huge cellar under the other two flats - but instead chose to fill the space in to avoid having to take dug out material off site. Result, apart from my flat with the garage, none of the others have any storage.

Anyway, I was never happy with the heating or hot water - being the usual "a combi is cheap and simple, never mind how rubbish they are" installation. Late last year, it broke down and the maintainers took over a week to fully sort it - during which time the tenant was "not very happy" at having no heating or hot water and refused to pay any rent.

I started looking at options, and my first though was a pressurised hot water cylinder - I'd never heard of thermal stores before. I think it was my brother that first mentioned them, he was planning his cottage renovation back then and that would have a TS, UFH, WBS, etc. I think it was while looking into TSs that I came across this site - and very useful it's been too.

In the end I settled on a TS since that would allow me to have electric backup for heating as well as hot water for next time the boiler breaks down.

So first step was to investigate what I already had. So removed the cover off the existing plumbing and found the usual sort of random spaghetti that most plumbers seem to think is acceptable - though I have to admit I've seen worse. Apologies for the poor quality, this was taken on my (old) phone.

[SimonHobson]

Of course, it wasn't just a simple case of sticking a tank in and moving a few pipes - there was an element of "can't do A until I've done B, and can't do B until I've done C, ..."

One of the "interesting design features" of this property is that there is no low level drainage in the garage - even though the manhole for the sewer is right outside the garage door. My guess is that they forgot about it until they'd concreted the floor - so they routed the soil pipe for this and the flat above round the wall of the garage, through the space under the hallway, and presumably joined up with the soilpipe for the adjacent house (there's also 5 houses in the development).

A previous owner had a drain installed for a washing machine, and this is how they achieved it ! Notice how careful the plumber was to maintain a fall along the pipe  

[SimonHobson]

Anyway, I wanted to be able to put a sink in, as well as putting the washing machine a bit lower down. Also, that waste pipe was in the way of where I wanted to put the pipes to the F&E tank for the TS. Short of digging up the floor and parking space outside, that meant a pump - and so I started watching a certain auction site for a Sanivite, which if you've ever had to buy one is a very expensive pump for what it is. I had considered a DIY job with something like a plastic header tank and a submersible pump - and had it just been me living there I'd probably have done that.

Anyway, I managed to pick up a pump for somewhat less than the normal new price, and ended up with this. Low level waste, and the pipe out of my way.

Another factor was looking forward to putting in a condensing boiler - when I'd need somewhere to send the condensate.

[SimonHobson]

For the store itself, the first thing I started with was the F&E tank. This went in a cupboard in the flat, and just required core-drilling through the floor for the pipes. I also put a 25mm conduit down from the consumer unit so that I could improve the electrics which were equally in the "how cheaply can we do this" style of building - they couldn't even be bothered with a few extra yards of cable to make a ring main in the garage

[tz0c0s]

Good for you Simon, not putting up with the cr@p they insist on throwing in. Your new pumped system may be in danger of freezing. It looks quite exposed & cold behind that garage door.

One thing worth noting is tenants are quite within their rights to not pay rent if they have no heating or hot water. Best to do what you are doing, a system with some redundancy.

Regards Andy

[SimonHobson]

Up until now, nothing had been too disruptive and nothing I did left the tenant without any service at any time - though the tenant was being quite annoying about this. She "demanded" I do something about the heating, but equally made it very clear she didn't want any disruption of any sort whatsoever As for trying to explain the concept of a thermal store

I had been wondering how on earth to manage putting in the store without leaving the tenant without heating and/or hot water at various stages. Then for a combination of reasons, the tenant was gone. OK, I was now without the rent, but I had free access and didn't need to worry about turning stuff off.
So I ordered the store, brought home a load of pipe, and set to - I'd reached the "no going back stage".

Here are some pictures of WIP. Notice how I had to juggle the pipe ordering to make some logic out of the original plumber's pipes. For the horizontal run, I ordered the pipes with hot at the top and cold at the bottom. The original pipes were, as far as i can see, in random order.

[SimonHobson]

Good for you Simon, not putting up with the cr@p they insist on throwing in. Your new pumped system may be in danger of freezing. It looks quite exposed & cold behind that garage door.

And you should see what some "plumbers" want to do for a flue when I replace the boiler !

Not too much chance of freezing. The garage isn't as exposed as it might look, and there's always some heat input from the boiler and pipework. And I'm not finished yet

One thing worth noting is tenants are quite within their rights to not pay rent if they have no heating or hot water. Best to do what you are doing, a system with some redundancy.

To a point - they cannot expect a system to never fail, lets face it, if it's your own house and your boiler breaks down at an awkward time, then you still can't expect the impossible. But they do expect things that they would not get if they were paying for it themselves.

[tz0c0s]

Aah, now I can see you have the freezing waste aspect covered.

Some people don't appreciate you need to crack eggs to make an omelet.

[SimonHobson]

And here it is with all the pipes connected.

I'm actually rather annoyed that I didn't get a couple of the pipes quite straight. But I'm fairly certain it wouldn't look anything like that had I been paying someone to do it - it's something my brother hasn't been happy about with his install, the plumber was been very "untidy" with the pipework.

[SimonHobson]

And then there is all the finishing off to do.

People comment that thermal stores are inefficient because they lose heat all the time. Well this one is going to live in a box, with plenty of insulation. In this pic you can see the door frames having a trial fit before I sheet them - about 3" thick with a layer of fibreglass inside. All the pipes will be boxed in, and enclosed with fibreglass.

The doors will both hinge outwards in front of the Sanivite - the one in front of all the pipework is hinged to the other. The washing machine will be in front of where the water meter and water taps are, and that would make access difficult if the right hand door were hinged off the frame.

Then there are little details ...
Someone reasonably observant may notice that the bit of boxing in under the boiler isn't the same height as that across to the TS. That's planning ahead to allow room for the gas pipe to be moved when the boiler gets changed. I intend fitting the replacement on the wall to the right of where the existing one is as it will take up less wall space that way. At present, that wall is unusable because it needs to be left clear for servicing the boiler - and the pipes prevent me moving the boiler to the left. Putting the boiler on the other wall will allow me to put shelves up for small items where the current boiler is without preventing access for servicing.

And I put the pump up there so it won't end up inaccessible under a sink or workbench.

[SimonHobson]

Aah, now I can see you have the freezing waste aspect covered.

Indeed, there isn't really anywhere external I could run a condensate drain to anyway, so it would have to stay inside (and use a pump).

The garage itself is relatively sheltered. Three of the external walls are cavity wall (they support the flats above), and none of them are external (one is shared with next doors garage, one backs onto an underground space under the hallway, the other holds back the ground at the front) The one that is only single block backs on to a store so it isn't directly external - but it is the one with all the copper pipes on, hence the care to insulate between the pipes and the wall as well as between the pipes and the inside air ! The original plumber didn't bother with that.

As it happens, the next door house had a replacement boiler a few years ago - and in spite of it being about 6ft from the kitchen sink the plumber still took the condensate drain outside to the drainpipe (you can see it in this picture of the outside). Guess what isn't working at the moment That's the kitchen window to the left of the picture, and you can see the waste pipe from the sink below it - it must be so hard to run a waste pipe that far across the kitchen.

My garage is where the Land Rover is parked - and yes, you would be right in saying it won't fit under the up-n-over door I think if I take out that door (and the lintel and three courses of bricks it supports) and replace it with side hinged doors, then it would just fit. The flat is directly above, the two windows above and above right are the bedroom - the other rooms are at the other side (front) of the building).

Needless to say, the plumbers I've asked all want to take a flue straight through the store so it comes out on those steps - just about at the height of the Land Rover roof. Then they want to fit half a mile of ugly plume diversion pipe to get the plume over somewhere near the drainpipe between the two garages. I reckon it's just possible to get an exhaust pipe out over the RSJs supporting the back wall and run it across inside. I do dislike walls covered in ugly external plumbing - there's no need in new-build to have any of those soil pipes on the outside (there is one just off the left of this picture as well).

Oh yes, if I ever considered adding any solar input for the TS, the panels/tubes would have to go on the wall below the bedroom windows. At this time of year it gets sun from about 11am to 3pm (so I guess not very effective), in summer it's a lot longer.

[tz0c0s]

Nice one, what part of the world are you in?

Nicely thought out. Combis pump charges the thermal store, alpha pump feeds the heating circuit, not a motorised valve in sight.
Until the boiler is changed, where does the DHW output from it go now?
If you are looking for a boiler with an interesting and versatile flue system, check out Keston.

I understand the need for a land rover. I would be thinking of digging a little first if it would at all help & I was allowed . You already have a nice drain.

Regards Andy

[SimonHobson]

Nice one, what part of the world are you in?

South Cumbria, not far from Barrow in Furness

Nicely thought out. Combis pump charges the thermal store, alpha pump feeds the heating circuit, not a motorised valve in sight.
Until the boiler is changed, where does the DHW output from it go now?

The DHW connections don't go anywhere - they're just not connected to anything. So I can forget about the flow sensor, diverter valve, switches etc related to the DHW system in the boiler and hopefully I'll have less problems - the last problem I had was a failed (but not 100%) microswitch on the flow sensor/diverter valve assembly and in the end I had to diagnose it myself and tell the supposed experts what to change

The two pump system seems to work nicely - avoids all the compromises you see in some systems trying to make one pump do several jobs. I've attached a schematic, so as you can see, it's quite a simple setup - but then how much can you do with a one bedroom flat ! I picked up the TMVs (and some spares) fairly inexpensively on eBay as well - I think they are liquidation stock from a bathroom fitter, but at least one of them has RWC cast into the body which I believe is considered a quality manufacturer.

If you are looking for a boiler with an interesting and versatile flue system, check out Keston.

Yes, that's one make that's been suggested - and then all the advice (on here I think) has been along the lines of "wouldn't wish one on ones worst enemy". But yes, 50mm muPVC for the flue would make a few options viable - specifically bringing the flue out just to the right of that drain pipe and above the RSJs that hole the wall up - there is a 2" gap between the RSJ and the underside of the block floor. I think a 60mm metal flue will also do, but it will mean cutting into the block floor a little - luckily, where I'd be wanting to do it, there is a narrower gap between the beams so it needn't weaken the floor. But that's for a future time when I've saved up a bit - this TS install has rather eaten into the cash a bit.

I understand the need for a land rover. I would be thinking of digging a little first if it would at all help & I was allowed . You already have a nice drain.

I assume you mean digging to lower the floor level ? Yes, I'd thought of that, but it would be a lot of work (and cost) for only a couple of inches - there's a slight slope up from where you can see the drain to the front of the garage, and then about a 1" step up to the garage floor. It wouldn't be worth the effort to be altering the drains either.
I'd still have to take the lintel out and put "proper" doors on, but I think I'd at least get my other Land Rover (it's on slightly smaller tyres) in with that height. When I took that photo, I was testing to see just how little space there is - there is a store access in that recess for what was originally intended to be a bin store, but is now used by the lady in one of the other flats. That space wasn't designed for large vehicles.

[SimonHobson]

Oh yes, nearly forgot.

One problem I had was fitting the DHW pipe into the TMV on the store. It's a huge valve for what it does, and the outlet has this big nut and a funny 22mm olive (it's like a short piece of pipe with tapered ends). I couldn't get it to even grip the pipe so I took the valve off the store to hold it in a vice in order to nip the olive up a bit.

I'm glad I did as this is what I found in it. Yes, that's a big wad of Rockwool that the store is lagged with, oops.

[tz0c0s]

and then all the advice (on here I think) has been along the lines of "wouldn't wish one on ones worst enemy".

Humm.... never owned a Keston although I have repaired one (R/H side pcb gone) it did not seem too bad & this was I believe the first time it had failed.
I have always been a Worcester man with odd delves into Potterton.

Barrow in Furness

Fairly soft water then, no need for additional protection against limescale.

Well done again for what looks like a nice job.

Regards Andy