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Author Topic: Evacuated tube solar water heating and central heating system project  (Read 3009 times)
Baz
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 08:19:46 PM »

A few months ago Dhaslam provided a spreadsheet of his daily output for a year. Analysing this is interesting as although it is for a different location it gives a feel for the yield variability per tube.
 It shows  periods of high output say for 5 days then 4 of low even in mid summer. Your dual store will help even this out for DHW avoiding dumping and preserving that heat for the lean days.
From this data I concluded that for 7 months of summer per person using 45 litres per day at 45C required 7 tubes and a tank at least twice that heated to 80C to ensure almost total solar DHW supply. Note that is summer and nothing spare so you can see more tubes are needed for winter DHW let alone space heating.
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stuartiannaylor
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 11:57:42 PM »

Does using solar towards central heating work?

It's tempting just to write:

No

But after your detailed explanation, I feel some more justification is required.

The reason why I don't believe that solar will work for heating is that when you need the heat, the solar tends to be in off mode.
And since there's no efficient way of storing the energy until we need it for the heating (summer round to winter) then to capture solar power for winter heating we need a large (expensive) system, and still need to store heat captured in the short day for release in the long night.

OTOH it does DHW fine.

In terms of cost for energy produced, solar collectors are far more efficient than solar PV. In the terms of the current market I don't really understand your logic.
There are some new interesting products that work extremely well with northern climes and can reach very high temperatures. Winter compensation provides an oversized array that produces a summer excess. There are projects looking at how to harness and generate from that excess.
The main problem is that there use doesn't fit the conventional grid system.
Your street / road would be a perfect example where solar space heating could provide an excess in summer locally where shared generation could provide huge benefits.

Its a combination of locally absorbed heat and distance shared generation that could provide many benefits in efficiencies and economies of scale. Shared community generation systems can provide electricity but where heat is needed it is stored or at least topped up daily.


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billi
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2011, 12:43:38 AM »


Quote
In terms of cost for energy produced, solar collectors are far more efficient than solar PV


 Is that so ?
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Guinness no Grid comes near

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
2807
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2011, 08:49:43 AM »

7th March today & my central heating radiators have been at 70 degrees C plus, between midday and 5pm every day for the last week (clear skies & thermometer that only reads Hi above 70deg.

No more woodburners this winter I hope.

2807
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SolarHeat
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2011, 05:33:28 PM »

After a long time not updating, due to being too busy, here is the latest report.
We recently discovered a leak, the hard (decor damaging) way, in the solar pipework which had lost quite a bit of fluid and explained why system performance appeared to have gradually decreased and then air started gurgling around. This has now been rectified (a leak on a joint in an awkward, hidden, position was to blame) but, obviously, it is environmentally a disappointment at the extra usage of fluid and energy.
A few months ago, I discovered the valve which switches the heat store in and out of the heating circuit had been switching on and off many times per day as the installation of the pipework had been done in such a way that heat rises from the base of the hot water tank heating the pipework to the valve, so the thermal reading to the controller was going over the threshold to switch, changing the valve to off which released the warmth up the pipework then causing the temperature to fall and repeating the cycle. Repositioning the sensor has cured the switching but there are still losses in the pipework. The moral to this being make sure the pipework is installed with consideration to flow and heat rising not just convenience of the installer!
Disappointingly, the electricity demand has apparently not fallen (compared to 2008 & 2009) when averaged over 9 months. The solar pumps appear to be using more electricity than I had factored in but there have also been external influences such as the digital switchover which has caused an increased consumption with the digital box, etc. There is a slight drop compared to last year but that isn't totally surprising as last year had some of the building/installation work taking place in the period to September.
Gas results are looking very favourable with a fall in usage of around 1/3 which is pleasing and as anticipated.
The system size appears to be correct - my concerns that it may overheat in Summer have been alleviated and it holds its own with visitors staying and using showers, etc. I think we may be possibly even be a little undersized, certainly if we had more people living in the house, I'd think about increasing solar tube capacity a little more.
The feed into the heating system is definitely, contrary to the sceptics, worthwhile as many days in Spring until now have seen the heating system taking heat from the heat store for both radiators and hot water recharging whilst needing no input from the boiler.
There hasn't been much heat dumped into the foundations but the warmth from below is undoubtedly a help and I think we should see dividends this coming winter. Already, on a cool day, when the meter reader visited, he remarked about the pleasant warmth and that was without the heating having switched in at all!
I have been surprised at the heat losses from the tanks, despite their claimed superinsulation level, and have added a jacket to the hot water tank.
The extra roof insulation has undoubtedly helped reduce heat loss, so the difference isn't all gain from the panels but, because of careful positioning, it has been much cooler upstairs as there hasn't been the heat coming in on hot days too!
Maybe it is worth me looking at further draughtproofing but care is required to avoid over reducing the airflow!
Payback could be looking better if the RHI comes in.
Despite the hassles getting here, I still think it has been worth it!
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stuartiannaylor
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2011, 10:40:25 AM »


Quote
In terms of cost for energy produced, solar collectors are far more efficient than solar PV


 Is that so ?

Answer yes, theoretically the current max limits on PV are quite low.
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SolarHeat
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 04:16:51 PM »

The latest update...
The December 2010 to December 2011 consumption looks much better compared to the 9 months to September.
It comes out at Electricity usage down by an average 25% and gas usage down by an average of 38% - I am not including 2009 - 2010 in order to give a more accurate result because of the extra energy used by the building/installation work.
This equates to over £160 a year lower bills, based on a unit price of just over 9p per kWh electricity and 3p per kW gas. I have used the lower rate as this is more representative of the price per unit saved, but, having so said, in summer the saving would, in reality, be at the higher rate as the reduced price change threshold is not reached.
This would mean, at around £160 a year, that total costs would make it approaching a 100 year payback but that assumes no renewals to the old system would have been needed and no rising energy prices! Also, see the next paragraph.
Overall, the savings will mean our total annual energy consumption comes out at a cost of between £500 and £600. Which I believe is around 1/3 the national average for a property similar/slightly smaller in size to ours. I think that is pretty good for a building of its age and usage!
A little fine tuning of the system is still taking place - e.g. slightly lowering the maximum temperature, achieved by the panels, of the heat store feeding the boiler as it has caused the boiler to do an overtemp shutdown a couple of times, but now the system is pretty much as good as it is going to be.
With the knowledge I now have, I feel sure, with better installation, it could have been another 10% more efficient - but it's much too late now!
So my assessment for the others contemplating doing similar projects - For a new build/installation, it is a no brainer to have a well designed and installed system including solar. For a retrofit, the argument is harder if you are already rather energy efficient, but if you are around the national average consumption, you can get payback within a quite reasonable timescale (before taking into account any price rises).
One of the most common things that comes up in conversations with other people who have solar thermal system is who fits it. There appear to be many expensive and/or poor quality installations being made countrywide, and sometimes from companies which claim to be experts or have a good reputation! So buyer beware - always talk to people who have had installations before you purchase a system and compare what they say about the companies they have had do the installation and what the end energy consumption results are.
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