Price of veg oil

[KenB]

List,

Regarding red diesel - I was at the Great Dorset Steam Fair in Sept 2006.

Someone  who exhibits vintage tractors there said that HMR&C were dipping tanks just outside the show-ring.

Even though these tractors drive about a mile a year on a private field and spend the rest of the year in a barn or on a transporter truck, HMR&C said that in the show ring they were not doing agricultural work, and so it was an offence to use red diesel - and some exhibitors were fined accordingly.

How effing petty is that - have they not got bigger fish to fry??

The chap who told me this, is a canny Scot, saw the commotion and the serious looking gentlemen in dayglow jackets, and quickly drained his tank and fuel filter into the dirt .

When the HMR&C dipped his tractor - the tank was empty and they were puzzled how this tractor had just driven around the ring a few minutes earlier 

Any more tales of pointless bureaucracy and waste of taxpayers money greatly appreciated.


Ken

[Bargeman]

Hello,

I guess that most people are by now already aware, but its worth restating that if you collect your own waste vegetable oil, filter it and then use it in a vehicle, then HMRC require no duty to be paid for quantities under 2,500 litres annually. Whilst SVO is not covered by the exemption, this loophole is big enough for anyone to drive a truck through (forgive the mixed metaphor) and suggests that HMRC have given up chasing all but the most blatant abuses.

regards

[merkland]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that under the latest rules one may use up to 2500 litres of veg oil or home produced biodiesel without being registered with Customs & Excise and without having to pay tax. You do however need to keep records! of all fuel used, presumably with mileages, so that if stopped, and checked ,you can prove that you are operating within the law.

[Ivan]

Ken, That story is appalling. I think I'd quickly argue around their fines on the basis that the tractors were being paraded as some kind of R&D exercise - allowing participating farmers to rediscover old engineering tricks. If that didn't work, then you could argue that the tractor is a working tractor, which was used recently, and that prior to entering the show ring, the driver had added 2litres of road diesel to cover the non-agricultural use.

In business, shows and events are seen as very beneficial networking occasions - can you imagine if participants of commercial shows (eg Interbuild that Navitron attended recently) were not allowed to claim their expenses. Many people at these shows are simply trying to gain awareness of their products, services or in the case of people like EON and various government agencies, simply promoting renewables.


Incidentally, has anyone thought about how we leave ourselves open everytime we fill with diesel at a petrol station. For example, the station decides to start selling red diesel to save money. How would you know. You cannot see the diesel being dispensed. And I don't suppose HMRC would even entertain the excuse 'well I only fill up at petrol stations, it must have been them' - I wonder how many cars would be confiscated and fines produced as a result? HMRC would argue that it is the driver's responsibility to check (the same as it's the driver's responsibility to know the full works of the Road Traffic Act (many volumes).

Ivan

[Twenty4Seven]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that under the latest rules one may use up to 2500 litres of veg oil or home produced biodiesel without being registered with Customs & Excise and without having to pay tax. You do however need to keep records! of all fuel used, presumably with mileages, so that if stopped, and checked ,you can prove that you are operating within the law.

I was previously regerstered with HMRC (as a biodiesel producer) 'til the rules changed and your assesment of the current situation is my understanding too.

Nick

[merkland]

Reference Ken's story about the Vintage Tractors being fined for using red diesel to parade around a ring - hogwash. As far as I am aware duty is only payable on fuel if the vehicle using it runs on a public road at anytime, even if it is just to cross a public road from one field to another. If you can prove that a vehicle is never on a public road you are not liable for duty so if it was possible to buy fuel without paying duty you could use it and there is nothing Customs could do. Red diesel was produced at the lower rate of duty to reflect the fact that agricultural vehicles are (usually)only on the public road for a minute part of their activity.

[KenB]

Merkland,

I spoke to the tractor owner myself.

HMR&C were present that year at the Great Dorset, specifically dipping tanks, looking for inappropriate use of red diesel.

Parading around a show ring did not constitute as an allowed agricultural use.

Don't shoot the messenger.....



Ken

[frank2]

ken

your posts deserve utmost respect in my opinion. 

[renewablejohn]

I wonder what HMRC would make of my chinese tractor as it runs on Kerosene

[Ted]

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2005/08/12/88510/dissecting-red-diesel-rules.html

[merkland]

Ken,

Very sorry it was not intended to read that way.

The point I was trying to make was that if the vehicle concerned did not travel on the public road they are not liable for any duty so HM Customs were acting illegally in fining them for using red diesel, the price of which includes a reduced amount of duty. Those that were fined should get a good solicitor on the case.
Ted's posting makes interesting reading but note that it only refers to vehicles burning red diesel and traveling on public roads.
I repeat, my understanding is that a vehicle may use duty free fuel( if you could obtain it ) provided it never runs on a public road.

[martin]

in the light of HMCI losing the records of millions of people, they have been bleating loudly about "staff cuts".........presumably discovering whether historic machinery is using red diesel on a display field is of the very highest priority................

[Ivan]

People have long used red diesel for non-road purposes, but HMRC have tried to clarify that this has to be for AGRICULTURAL, FORESTRY or HORTICULTURAL use. Not sure how successful they have been, but they have banned the use of red diesel in boats, and one of their arguments is that some of the fuel may be used for 'domestic' use - ie heating the boat, cooking, electricity etc.  There's been a lot of resistance, and I'm not sure is what the latest state of play.

One thing's for sure, I doubt you are going to get caught using a few litres of red diesel per week for running a generator etc!

[Billy]

Hi all,

Just to add my penny worth, they have banned red diesel for boats for propulsion only, not for heating or power generation.  This leads to the annomally of the main engine being used for mains power generation, charging batteries and heating water/rads whilst stationary, perhaps in a lock or at anchor.  If they did a blood test at the pump it could well be tainted with red if you have just changed over tank from red to white.  And how do they propose to police it?  Beggars belief!

Billy the Barge

[renewablejohn]

Whats the position with kerosene as our boat always used to run better on kerosene rather tha red diesel it saved having different fuel for the aga