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Author Topic: Immersion heaters in series  (Read 4703 times)
design4p
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 12:14:22 PM »

Hi,  Thank you for all the replies.  My turbine will be 24 volt 1Kw Future energy.

I would be interested in other members views on my proposed system as I am sure more experienced than me.

The system I am thinking of is as follows:

The only requirement for the turbine is to produce hot water in my heat bank plumbing system (therefore the hot water can be used for U/F heating and DHW).

I will have 2 x 12 volt deep cell batteries to steady the voltage.  A charge controller to charge the batteries and then to dump the turbine power and the battery power to the immersion heater(s).  Depending on the power being generated I would want to try and match the heater wattage using switches.

Just thinking, because I have the batteries and the turbine connected to the immersion heater(s) I would have 2 x 110 Amp hour 12v parallel (24v) - would this give a bank of 2630 watts or say 6.5 hours of 400 watt usage?

I would welcome any comments or suggestions.  Regards John
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Dyslexicbloke
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 01:26:30 PM »

No is the simple answer because that implys a complete discharge which you definatly wouldnt want to do.
I am no battery expert, its a very complex subject, but even 40% discharge is pushing it as I understand it not to mention the discharge rate .....

That asside I am a little confused as to why you would need batteries at all given your goal. You ar simply adding complexity and losses.

My advice, sell the batteries, and asociated kit, and re-invest the money in MPPT Maximum Power Point Tracking and a control system that uses a set of immersion heaters to deliver the grade of heat you want at the time.

Bear in mind, whatever power is available at any point in time is going to be converted to heat, but what heat?
Lots of warm water from an elliment set low in the tank or a bit of hot water from one highr up.

Just some stuff to muse on perhaps.

Al
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johnrae
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 04:57:11 PM »

If your turbine is in a location where it can "catch" any wind that is going then you should wire it directly to a 1kW immersion heater system via a PWM control.  If it is "shaded" due to trees or buildings then you will be disappointed.

The PWM is essential so that you can match the load to the available power to suit wind conditions.   A 1kW resistive load in light winds will get virtually no input since the load acts as a brake and stops the turbine.  However if it is controlled via a PWM controller you will get all available power at the turbine blades.  Bear in mind that power is a cubic function.  Half the wind speed only produces 1/8th of the power.

To use batteries to feed an immersion is a total waste of battery (and money).  If you haven't yet bought the turbine, get one of FE's 48v 1kW units.   Twice the voltage, half the current and one quarter of the IsquaredR losses.   Bear in mind that any electronic gizmo used to control the system will drop between 0.7 and 1.4 volts across its internal diodes.  So having a higher primary voltage means less percentage lost at the controller  (1.4/48 is less than 1.4/24)

Your turbine will produce a rectified DC output (at least FEs normally do) so by measuring this output you can determine turbine speed and hence power available.  You will need this information to drive the PWM control.

I have an FE 1kW unit and can vouch that it is capable of at least 1.6kW in a good blow from the correct direction.  However in certain wind directions it is shaded by my house and even in a "hurricane" it produces very little.

jack
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 05:00:18 PM »

Nice articles on MOSFETs and PWM: Part 1 and Part 2.
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ericw
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 05:14:50 PM »

It might be possible to modify a 1 quadrant motor speed controller to provide the load control.
Connect your 1kW load where the motor goes, and feed the control input with a sample of the turbine voltage.
The 4QD web site (www.4qd.co.uk) has a lot of background information on PWM controllers

Unfortunately the 4QD ones are a bit too clever, in that they go 'open circuit' when overloaded to protect themselves, for a turbine you need it to go 'short circuit' to load the turbine.
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design4p
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 07:02:44 PM »

Hi, 

Thank you for the information all very interesting. 

I'm not an electonic engineer, so would like to know where you can purchase a 'MPPT Maximum Power Point Tracking and a control system that uses a set of immersion heaters' as suggested bya fellow member.

Regards John
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design4p
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 07:06:54 PM »

Hi everyone,

Where can I purchase a PWM controller?

Regards John
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billi
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 01:39:49 AM »

John  i

I cannot help with the battery- less design  , cause have no idea where to source an affordable direct heating controller


So  hope others can direct you to an available product ..... Roll Eyes

here is a lower priced Battery diversion controller and i assume you have to find the  matching DC heating element

http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/support/library/TriStar%20Datasheet%20English.pdf

Billi
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Alan
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »

Hello John

You do not mention your location / proposed turbine position.
Have you considered that the turbine will probably only be
delivering a very few watts for most of the time in not ideal
positions.
My 5 K.W turbine does 75 kWh on a good day but
only manages 1.8 kWh on other days.
The total for the last 366 days is 3212 kWh with a daily average of 8.8 kWh

Worth a ponder before spending the money.

Regards

Alan
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design4p
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2011, 01:31:57 PM »

Thank you for the information from everyone.  Alan's advice about heaters in parallel and series is brilliant.

What I would like to know is say I connect 400 watt and 600 watt in parallel that would be a total wattage around 1000 watts.  When the turbine is producing this wattage would there be a different heating effect on the 2 immersion heaters because one is 400 and the other 600 ( ie would the 400 watt heater be over loaded and the 600 watt underloaded), or would they be balanced and only take the wattage they are designed for.

I am trying to think of the relationship between the heater resistances (singularly, series and parallel) and the working wattage of each heater.

Any thoughts would be welcome.  John
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johnrae
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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2011, 03:35:47 PM »

Both elements will see the same voltage.  Provided they are rated for that voltage then they are OK.   Think about it, if you plug a 40watt light bulb into a fitting and also put a 100 watt one beside it, they are both seeing the same voltage so one glows brighter than the other because that is exactly what they are designed to do.
jack
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design4p
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2011, 05:22:01 PM »

Thank you the information. 

I'm lacking in electrical knowledge but OK with mechanical so any sparky help is most welcome.

Regards John
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Outtasight
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« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2011, 11:37:15 AM »

Just wondering... who will be doing the sparky work for you, if you're not familiar with it?

I don't suppose many people here actually pay much attention to it, but the government has mandated that all but the most simple electrical work be notified to and possibly inspected by building control officers from the Council.  Even 12V DC lighting in your garden that isn't composed of "pre-wired sets" (i.e. you don't do any wiring connections other than plugging the thing's mains transformer into a socket) is supposed to be "notifiable work" that must be done by a "competent person" (paid electrician).  
Next they'll demand that you need a man in a hazmat suit and goggles to change your bedside table light bulbs  fume

But on the other hand, big batteries, wind turbines, heaters and power electronics are dangerous things to be playing with.  Each has the possibility of catching fire, blowing up, or causing chemical burns.

Unloading a turbine at full power can result in a very dangerous over-speed that will destroy the turbine and send high speed mechanical wreckage travelling for quite some distance (one of Frotter's missing turbine blades was discovered on a neighbouring cow shed  whistlie).  Over charging a battery will result in explosive hydrogen gas or even thermal runaway in the battery that can boil the acid and cause an explosion with acid burns.  

Unless you know exactly what you are doing and understand the risks (including the risk of having your buildings insurance invalidated in the event of a disaster involving your experimental power project and being prosecuted by the Part P police), then don't do anything.

Probably the only "legitimate" way to do what you want to do is to get an MCS accredited electrical company to install the turbine as a grid tied generator and then just run a 230V AC immersion heater as installed by a registered electrician.  If you pay an industrial control electrician a few thousand more Pounds, he might rig up an "approved" method of sensing the power output of your turbine and driving a simple on/off relay to limit the amount of power the heater draws from the grid rather than from your turbine.  Anything else gets you into hot water (or astronomical expense) as you are then in the realm of commissioning a new design that will have to under go safety testing to meet a plethora of standards.  

Try talking to your local building control officer about commissioning a custom designed, home made PWM power controller for a wind turbine powered immersion heater and they won't have a clue, but the stock answer will be, "No, you can't do that.  There's no standard for it.  The computer says no".  They mostly just rubber stamp notifications for having a light bulb installed in your kitchen ceiling and then collect their fee.  They will then demand a full "drains up" study to be commissioned into the risk analysis of your design and hire some engineering consultants at £2000 per day at your expense "to look into it"... Before demanding a load of tests and certifications (at your expense again) to get the thing approved as a "one-off".  Assuming you've got thousands of Pounds and months of time to waste on all that red tape, you might be allowed to use your invention to save a few quid on your water heating bills.

Meanwhile, back at the illegal DC wiring installation at your home...

If you use a Morningstar Tristar PWM dump load controller on the batteries, they won't get discharged at all.  They will get full and then the PWM charge controller will dump the precise excess energy into your heater element.  When the wind stops, the battery Voltage will fall below the float fully charged level and charge controller will just stop sending power to the heater.  It will almost infinitely vary the power to the load from zero to the full 1000W that the heater can draw.  If your turbine can put out 1.6kW in a storm, you'll need some fail-safe brake relay or another dump load and controller to protect the turbine from over spin.

You just need to make sure the controller is properly rated for the dump load. 1000W at 48V is only 20 Amps, so the 45 Amp controller will do.  If you go for 24V turbine, then the current to the load will double and you'd best go for the bigger 60 Amp controller.

You need to limit the charge current from the turbine to the batteries to C/5 (or about 20A per 100Ah battery).  More than that and the battery will heat up and make lots of gas.

If you just want to use the power for heating and aren't interested in using the batteries, you could replace the batteries with super capacitors, as these will charge up almost immediately and just provide the short term energy store that the charge controller needs so it can work to maintain a constant Voltage across it.  Super capacitors where used in the TV show that had 90 bicycle generators connected to Tristar controllers and to an off-grid inverter to run a test house for a day.  The super capacitors gave the folk on the bikes a few seconds of buffering in power demand, so that they could watch a big meter and speed up pedalling or add more riders to meet the demand.  Super capacitors also have very high charge efficiency, so the riders didn't waste precious energy on charging losses for normal lead batteries. Super capacitors are expensive beasties though, so a bunch of small batteries can achieve much the same thing.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 11:40:28 AM by Outtasight » Logged

http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (daily update)
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skyewright
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2011, 09:37:10 AM »

If you just want to use the power for heating and aren't interested in using the batteries, you could replace the batteries with super capacitors, as these will charge up almost immediately and just provide the short term energy store that the charge controller needs so it can work to maintain a constant Voltage across it.
Enquiring from a position of almost total ignorance (so maybe the idea is ridiculous), but...

In that sort of situation would a set of old car batteries do the job?

Or is is maybe that because they are old they won't "take a charge" and thus are almost the total opposite to your 'charge up almost immediately' super capacitors?
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Regards
David
3.91kWp PV  (17 x Moser Baer 230 and Aurora PVI-3.6-OUTD-S-UK), slope 40°, WSW, Lat 57° 9' (Isle of Skye)
camillitech
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2011, 12:29:34 PM »

Just wondering... who will be doing the sparky work for you, if you're not familiar with it?

I don't suppose many people here actually pay much attention to it, but the government has mandated that all but the most simple electrical work be notified to and possibly inspected by building control officers from the Council.  Even 12V DC lighting in your garden that isn't composed of "pre-wired sets" (i.e. you don't do any wiring connections other than plugging the thing's mains transformer into a socket) is supposed to be "notifiable work" that must be done by a "competent person" (paid electrician).  
Next they'll demand that you need a man in a hazmat suit and goggles to change your bedside table light bulbs  fume

But on the other hand, big batteries, wind turbines, heaters and power electronics are dangerous things to be playing with.  Each has the possibility of catching fire, blowing up, or causing chemical burns.

Unloading a turbine at full power can result in a very dangerous over-speed that will destroy the turbine and send high speed mechanical wreckage travelling for quite some distance (one of Frotter's missing turbine blades was discovered on a neighbouring cow shed  whistlie).  Over charging a battery will result in explosive hydrogen gas or even thermal runaway in the battery that can boil the acid and cause an explosion with acid burns.  


Meanwhile, back at the illegal DC wiring installation at your home...



Hmmmmmmmmm  Grin all this good advice from a respected member who keeps his batteries under the sofa  whistlie

 ralph  ralph  ralph Paul
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