Help/Advice Wanted For Building My Timber & Straw Off Grid Woodland House

[lindisfarnecharcoal]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new here, just joined after looking around the net for good forums to seek advice on my little project.  I'm building a single story, rectangular house, of Timber frame & straw bale in-fill walls & felt shingles. The house is to be situated within woodlands that I manage up here in Northumberland, & will consequently be off grid. I have almost no budget & am using recycled materials wherever possible.

I need help in many areas, but as I'll be living on site in a static throughout the house build, I thought I'd start with power, as I'll need that in both my static, & then later in the house.  I'm wanting a battery bank, 48v inverter & a Lister genie. I'd really like it to be startomatic (I think that's what I mean), so that it kicks in automatically to charge the batteries when they need it.

So far: I've met with a lovely man called Mike Seeley, from Windsun, who's based in Durham. It was he who helped me rule a few things in & out, & come up with the above format. What I need help with is selecting the right components, putting them together & learning how to monitor & maintain them. I work all hours & winters in Northumberland can be cold, & long, it needs to be as simple a set-up as possible.

Any help or advice, very much appreciated,
Nathalie.

[Brian-s]

I know nothing about this but others may be able to help if this is a valid suggestion. As you are making charcoal, I would have thought you have access to excess heat. Could you run a steam engine from this to charge batteries? Then you will not need fuel for the Lister.

Brian.

[billi]

Hi

I thought so as well , that  on the long run it makes more sense using wood  as a fuel
But for a start  we need to know , what you want to run in your house , how much  Kwh you guess you need per day

is there no  little water stream neat you in that forest ?

Billi

[wesnet]

Brian
It might work with a big 'retort' kiln but not with a ring kiln, as seen in the background on Nathalies avatar. From her web site it looks to be about 6' diameter and even if it produced enough spare heat, which I doubt, it is hard enough getting the charcoal out without adding pipwork to get in the way.

Nathalie
Welcome to the forum from a fellow wood collier.

John

By the way there is an e missing from the url on your profile.

[martin]

I think a wood burning stove and/or range has got to be a sensible start, bottled gas for cooking and a 'fridge, try to minimise your electrical needs, THEN design to give all the power you need (electricity is the expensive to capture/generate/store option) - if your budget is as tight as you suggest, that part is essential. Listers and battery banks are wonderful, but I can't pretend they're cheap.....

[lindisfarnecharcoal]

Hi Everyone, wow, thanks for the replies & welcomes. Using the kiln to charge the batteries was considered, but promptly rules out for practical reasons as pointed out by one of you.  I'll have my trusty rayburn doing house heat, water & cooking. In terms of power needs, very small really. I'm looking for about a 3000w inverter (if I could find a 5000 that would be great) to run the small daily needs. The only real big draw is the washing machine which I'll probably run straight of a genie on the workshop. So, lights, tv, pump & freezer is really about it. No electric kettles, toasters or hairdryers etc. The costs I know can be harsh, but I'm hoping to start off with second hand batteries & build the bank over time. With the genie, I just want a good old reliable lump with limited elecs of it's own, & a simple service routine.
Keep it coming guys.
Nathalie.

[biff]

hi nathalie,
        welcome to the forum,im sure there are quality thinkers on board who can help you, may i suggest a couple of 80watt solar panels and as many good batteries as you can lay your hands on.
     find a nice non shaded clearing for your panels and pipe the lecky into the batteries for storage, this will help you run your low energy led telly and charge your laptop,,ipod,etc.
    configure your batteries in 12 volt for the time being and hook them up to a little smart650va ups,(400watt) this will run enough to get you started. later on when you get a bit of experience  billi will be able to advise you on good pv managment then you can step up to 48 volt with bigger batterybank and bigger ups,,plus lister.
      have a look at outtasight,s posts going back,he has some brilliant suggestions. but watch out,he keeps his batteries bubbling under the sofa.  

[martin]

Excellent! -best way is to "design backwards" - minimise your needs, and then work out how to get them....... Going on the "what would I do?" theory, I'd have a bottled gas powered fridge/freezer - boat/caravan type (they consume one heck of a lot of electricity, and can demand an enormous battery bank just to supply them, so use electricity only where there is no other power source-  hence my suggestion of bottled gas for that and cooking) - so we're now down to supplying electricity for lights, tv, pump etc - which means a much "lighter weight" battery bank and charging source (which can save a lot of money!). I think your idea of running a washing machine from a generator is an intrinsically good plan, but probably you'll need another power source too.........
I'd go for gennie/battery bank and some solar pv and a miniscule inverter for "everyday" use (something like 150w pure sine wave), and possibly a whopper to run the washing machine. As for battery banks and "adding to them", I'd suggest a good read of many of the threads we have on batteries - it is very easy to get wrong, and it is not easy (or advisable) to "add to" an existing bank.

To put what you're trying to do in perspective, I've happily run a small caravan in summer using one large leisure battery, a 20w pv panel and suitable regulator, which has been sufficient for all our lighting, water pumping, tv, radio, laptop and general charging needs (gas fridge and cooker) - if you could add some pv panels to the system (I'd suggest 200 watts or more) they'd help considerably towards keeping gennie use to a minimum, and keeping the batteries in a good state of charge

[EccentricAnomaly]

Quoting out of order:

So, lights, tv, pump & freezer is really about it. No electric kettles, toasters or hairdryers etc.

excellent, but

In terms of power needs, very small really. I'm looking for about a 3000w inverter (if I could find a 5000 that would be great) to run the small daily needs.

Lights, assuming florescent and/or LEDs: 100 W or so max.
TV, again with sensible choice: 100 W or so.
Pump (central heating or well?): CH 80 W or so.
Freezer: 150 W but with a much bigger start power draw.

A well pump could be quite a bit more but could it be run when the generator's running, too?

Anyway, it sounds like a nice 1000 W pure-sine-wave inverter with a good peak overpower capability would be plenty.

Martin often advises bottled gas for the fridge despite repeated contradiction by people who run electric fridges off-grid.

[Justme]

Gas fridges do use quite a lot of gas. You can get mains & 12v (dont get a 12v one that does not have a proper motor as the other type use lots of power) fridges that will use very little power. Our larger sized one only uses 0.3kWh in a day. In 12v terms thats 25amph. If you get a washer that can either have the heater disabled or only used on cold washes then it will use very little energy per cycle.

Trying to max out the genny when its on is good for fuel consumption just keep it to about 3/4 load for best fuel cost returns. We tend to let the charger run for a while before starting other loads. That way when the charger has done its bulk phase you are not running the genny to provide very little power.

[billi]

Using the kiln to charge the batteries was considered, but promptly rules out for practical reasons as pointed out by one of you.

Nathalie  , that is a pity that this idea is ruled out so fast ....  ( cause there are several ways how to get electricity from heat beside the steamengine)

Living off grid with a diesel-generator is very expensive to run , and can be quite annoying if something breaks down
and it sounds all so romantic , but after a few years one is glad that everything works close to maintenance free , so  we are quite happy to be independent (nearly) of those diesel suckers  
Can you tell how often the kiln is on and how long he runs   , and the temperatures of the flue and the shell (roughly) ?
About Inverter-sizing perhaps use a model that can be doubled up later  ( but a good 5 kva one is  not much more than a 3 kva Inverter )

Are you totaly in the wood and PV would be often in shade ?

Billi

[martin]

I don't argue that many people run electric fridge/freezers off-grid, and in the context of a whomping great battery bank and charging system it is "one way of doing it", but having used gas fridges while caravanning have never found them to be particularly "thirsty" - we've often lasted a week on 3.9 kilos of propane for cooking/fridge, and the occasional burst of gas heating - and as I said, I think that in the context of a tiny budget and sheer pragmatism, a caravan cooker and fridge make a lot of sense in many ways (especially when using electricity for only those things that there is "no other way" for.......)
Taking Justme's "25 ampere hours" for a day, that means that in the depths of winter, if you were using pv alone, you'd need something like 300 watts of pv panels just to replenish that much into the battery banks (or run the gennie with the attendant clatter and expense) - which in the context of a "cheap" system is adding a lot of (to my mind) unnecessary expense and complication.

One thing I hadn't thought of when I first answered is a technology that could be explored - a "rocket" stove, whereby you could have the "oildrum" part in the cooking area, and run the flue all the way along the base of one wall - with a good chunk of masonry it could help keep the chill off "while you're out"........

[lindisfarnecharcoal]

Again, so many good replies thank you everyone. I'll try to cover all points raised here.

The kiln is around is some distance from the house, 500-800 meters. It's lit 2-3 times a week (weather dependant) and runs at high temps for 12-15 hours. If you can think of an efficient & cost effective way to harness power from it, I'm all ears!

The washing machine will only have spin to draw power with, no heat element as the hot water will provided for some from the rayburn.  

I don't want gas, I have heating, hot water & cooking all sorted with Rayburn, which runs on wood, which I have, allot of! Gas is another expense I don't really need. When it's nice & warn in the summer I shall do as I do now. Shut the rayburn off, cook outside, use a solar shower & open the windows!


I hadn't banked on needing a well pump. I have fresh water on site already & had intended to connect it up to a couple of IBC tanks (as back up if the pipe freezes at any point), & then through some sort of filter system & into the house.

The house is to be situated in a field with a clear view to the North, & surrounded by trees (about 1.5 tree lengths away incase of wind-blow) on all sides. Trees are average 30-35 meters high, so not great for solar, but I had hoped to put a little one in the system & a small wind generator, just to add a trickle charge to the batteries.

The rocket stove idea, I'm not sure how I would benefit form this, I seem to missing something?

I had hoped it would be possible to run a simple 12v system in the static whilst I'm in it, & then hopefully having sourced suitable components, that  I can then assemble a 48v - 240 inverter system in the house when ready.  

Thanks guys, & gals hopefully?

[knighty]

you might be better off saving your budget for essentials right now and waiting to get the batteries last...

I just paid £900+vat for a (good) used 48v forklift battery.... then add in the cost of the inverter and it gets pretty expensive...

what kind of system do you have in the static right now, and is it good enough to last you till the house is done?


I think you'd be better off using a couple of old lorry batteries powering a small inverter charged up by a small/cheap petrol generator... (for now)

running costs will be a higher, but the reduction in setup costs will more than make up for that...

[biff]

like martin
              i got fed up with the fridge sometimes catching me off guard and sucking the power out of my battery bank so i went for a 3 way fridge,12 volt,230ac,and gas, the 12volt ate the juice, the 230 is exellent when we have any wind at all but the gas is the dependable backup.our gas set up is 2 large 48s and an auto switch system, we run catilitic (spell?)  background heat,cooking and backup for the fridge of these.so a gas fridge is definatly a worker.
                                     biff