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Author Topic: Keeping Green House 12-15C year round  (Read 886 times)
Solarnav
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« on: March 19, 2011, 08:06:41 PM »

Lots of brains in this place that I hope to be able to pick! - Though not entirely sure where this belongs...

Anyway here is the challenge, I am about to take over a large, glass, green house roughly 18m x 7m, normal peaked roof shape.  I need the most energy efficient ways of keeping the interior at 12-15C, I also need to regularly exchange the air inside. So that means heating sometimes and cooling others. Natural light is not needed, humidity is not an issue. South UK, I have a small budget but lots of DIY/electrical/electronic/mechanical skills...!

For insulation the original plan was to paint all the glass with an opaque white paint, use mineral wool and chicken wire to insulate the vertical walls and create an insulated horizontal false ceiling on wood frames, leaving the apex above empty but with whited out windows, thus hot air in the roof would have to travel downwards before even getting to the insulated ceiling - and I could vent the roof space in summer to stop it heating up.

First idea is to rent a JCB and bury a bunch of IBCs at 4m deep, fill with a water/glycol solution and pump the resulting 11-12C water directly through a water/air exchanger (most likely a salvaged cold room evaporator!) in the insulated room - this of course would provide almost the right temp all year, but probably won't cope with the loss's through the insulated walls and air exchange when it's 0c or 30c outside!

For air exchange I plan to run room exhaust air through long pipes "contraflow" inside the incoming air duct as a sort of MVHR heat exchanger

For cooling I was thinking of building an evaporative cooler.

For heating I am scratching my head a bit, the air exchange will again go through the long tube heat exchanger to minimise losses but then I have a number of options. For winter sunny day heating, a black air pipe in the apex of the roof circulating into the room would probably do it but there is no thermal store for night or cloudy days.  A big set of solar vac tubes hooked up to insulated IBC's outside could provide enough heat store but it is expensive. I could hook a GSHP up to those buried IBC's but I assume there is a reason they normally bury lots of pipe, plus again expensive. Thought about building a home made collector under the glass roof or even a trickle down black pad version, again under the existing glass.

Most stuff I see is aimed at providing living room temps so any ideas on any of this welcome.... please!![/img]


* Insulated GH.jpg (30.4 KB, 816x508 - viewed 266 times.)
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 08:39:53 PM »

Odd greenhouse, not needing natural light. It's not a matter of keeping certain plants invisible from helicopter crews, is it?

How about leaving the glass transparent but using it as the front surface of a solar warm air collector? Put some insulation (polystyrene??) about 50 to 100 mm behind the glass with a black painted front face and maybe another layer of air-permeable dark coloured material between. Duct the air down from the apex either for general space heating or into your air/water heat exchanger to store the heat for later.
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dhaslam
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 09:14:10 PM »

How about leaving the glass transparent but using it as the front surface of a solar warm air collector? Put some insulation (polystyrene??) about 50 to 100 mm behind the glass with a black painted front face and maybe another layer of air-permeable dark coloured material between. Duct the air down from the apex either for general space heating or into your air/water heat exchanger to store the heat for later.
[/color]

One method is to use perforated  metal as the  black surface  and to collect the hot air behind the perforated metal.   It might be a little difficult  to heat a big volume of water  by hot air but  if you can blow the hot air past enough  copper or even plastic tubing  it will eventually heat it.   

It really all boils down to the heat loss.   Glass loses  enormous amounts of heat at night  and you can only collect so much during the day.   

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uUU1btDLW0
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Baz
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 10:07:17 PM »

No point in burying IBCs. The reason they use long lengths of plastic pipe underground is to get lots of surface area, the ground itself is the reservoir.
You will need to look out for condensation on the glass getting your insulation damp.
If roof glass is clear, in winter cover false ceiling with black plastic to gather heat, in summer with tinfoil to reflect it.
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2011, 09:06:25 AM »

Solarnav

If you only want 10-15C than just erect a bubble wrap inner green house within your greenhouse. Put a layer of insulation on the floor and cover with black weed prevention matting. If you slope the suspended roof of the bubble wrap then it will self ventilate with the hot air rising which you can control with a trap door. Have successfully used this method for the last 10 years to raise seedlings. For seedlings needing 25C temperatures we put in 45 gall steel drums  painted black and filled with water on the top of which we placed a bench for the seedlings with a plastic cover all within the bubble wrap greenhouse.
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martin
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 09:46:34 AM »

I get the feeling he wants to live in it, not grow anything.......... Wink
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Solarnav
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2011, 12:16:31 PM »

Quote
Odd greenhouse, not needing natural light. It's not a matter of keeping certain plants invisible from helicopter crews, is it?
- Correct... it is not.!

Quote
I get the feeling he wants to live in it, not grow anything..........
- Not at 12c I dont!!  winter

The floor is concrete and insulating it would be expensive - 126m2! Black barrels have me thinking though

Quote
No point in burying IBCs. The reason they use long lengths of plastic pipe underground is to get lots of surface area, the ground itself is the reservoir.
You will need to look out for condensation on the glass getting your insulation damp.
If roof glass is clear, in winter cover false ceiling with black plastic to gather heat, in summer with tinfoil to reflect it.

I wondered if the contstantly circulating/turbulent water in a series of IBCs would might have the same effect, I guess not.
That was one of my thoughts to leave the top glass clear, put a white top surface on the false ceiling and use an air/water heat exchanger (ie a car radiator or two)in the apex to extract the heat to a store. Once it is covered it would be difficult to change the top surface. - But yes thats the problem in that whatever I do for heating has to be able to be "turned off" in the summer.
Good point about condensation, I will leave a gap between insulation and glass wall, I will have to think about how to deal with the roof depending on ideas.

Thanks for the ideas so far...



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Baz
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2011, 01:05:51 PM »

The concrete will help but you need thermal mass inside. Quite a few IBCs and old radiators give out heat at night and absorb it in day. It does seem a pity to not use a greenhouse for a photosyntheseis crop and find an old Nissen hut for this job. But of course it is a question of what is avalable.
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Solarnav
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 01:53:24 PM »

Yep absolutely right. Though the previously the GH was abandoned and being used for nothing. It is the least ideal structure but it is what there is.
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