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Author Topic: Advice on proposed installation please  (Read 1378 times)
Allen
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 01:43:28 AM »

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As it is, the syphon starts up quite early with a cold tank - meaning you need to wait several hours before their's properly hot water.

Simon,

You say >>As it is, the syphon starts up quite early with a cold tank - meaning you need to wait several hours before their's (there's) properly hot water.<<

Doesn't that miss the whole point of the Solasyphon, in that it heats the top of the tank immediately?

Wookey's 'Plate heat Exchanger' works on the same system, and he appears to have success, but I agree with you, an indirect coil would seem to give more heat, albeit at a lower temperature.
Isn't there anybody on the forum who has actually used the Solasyphon?

Allen

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Allen
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 02:00:15 AM »

So if you want to get hotter water for intermittent use it seems a good bet but if you want a large volume of water at an even but lower temperature you're better off with a conventional coil. I think we'd all still like to hear from someone who's got one! Or maybe you should install it and tell us the results  Wink
Don

Don,
So would a combined system, using a Solasyphon for the (almost) 'instant'  hot water, and an indirect coil be the best solution? A two-valve and a bit of electronics should be able to route the solar heated water either through the Solasyphon or the indirect coil if the top of the tank is at (say) 50 deg C.
Or is that a totally impracticable idea?

Allen
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 07:57:16 AM »

You say >>As it is, the syphon starts up quite early with a cold tank - meaning you need to wait several hours before their's (there's) properly hot water.<<

Doesn't that miss the whole point of the Solasyphon, in that it heats the top of the tank immediately?
IMO then yes it does. The sales pitch seems to be that as long as your draw-off rate isn't too high then it'll provide all you "hot" water needs without supplementary heating - compared to a coil setup that will leave you with a tank full of lukewarm water needing topping up to a usable temperature.

Without some additional controls, I don't see their results confirming that.

So if you want to get hotter water for intermittent use it seems a good bet but if you want a large volume of water at an even but lower temperature you're better off with a conventional coil.
So would a combined system, using a Solasyphon for the (almost) 'instant'  hot water, and an indirect coil be the best solution? A two-valve and a bit of electronics should be able to route the solar heated water either through the Solasyphon or the indirect coil if the top of the tank is at (say) 50 deg C.
Or is that a totally impracticable idea?
Not only is it practical, but it's already done - albeit not in that manner. Two solar coils are an option on many cylinders, and controllers seem to have an option for a control to divert the flow round the upper coil until the top of the cylinder reaches a set temperature. This would achieve the desired aim of keeping a small reserve of "ready to use" water at the top while also heating the rest of the cylinder once that's achieved.

However, if you are going to maximum efficiency, then you'd ideally also need a means of detecting the amount of insolation so that you could turn this feature off if there's not enough sun to get anything meaningful out of the panels. Again it comes down to knowing how the output of the panels varies with collector temperature for differing amounts of insolation - do Navitron have such information for their systems ?

We are, of course, missing one benefit of the SolaSyphon or PHE setup. It can be retrofitted to an existing installation while a coil would need a replacement cylinder*. I don't know how useful this would be since I'd imagine any existing cylinder would be a bit on the small side.

* Excepting an "immersion heater" style coil which would mean losing your electric backup.
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brackwell
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 09:00:57 AM »

The way i look at this is.   The objective is to extract the max amount of energy from the sun and regardless of the actual temp of any water.   The colder the water the greater the efficiency and therefore the cold feed to the bottom of the tank where the solar coil is is beneficial.

The cold water enters the house at say 6C and is used at 40C so if the solar gets it to only 20C you save half your boiler bill.  If there is enough sun the hot water is rising and increasing the temp of the top of the tank and if this happens to reach 40C then great.  However in colder months the top of your tank, maybe heated by the boiler, will not be able to extract any solar heat but the bottom will still being fed by the cold water would be able to.

I can see the benefit in heating the top of the tank first and then the bottom if your only concentrating on producing some hotter water regardless of quantity or efficiency of the panel.  But in practice is this usable? You start to have a shower not knowing how much hot water is available and it runs out just as your trying to rinse your hair - then what are you going to do?

For me i like the idea of heating the tank from the bottom for max efficiency and having a inline temp programmed electric heater to raise the temp that last little bit if necessary and to act as a insurance policy eg no sun and no boiler on.

Ken
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 09:53:46 AM »

The way i look at this is.   The objective is to extract the max amount of energy from the sun and regardless of the actual temp of any water.   The colder the water the greater the efficiency and therefore the cold feed to the bottom of the tank where the solar coil is is beneficial.

The cold water enters the house at say 6C and is used at 40C so if the solar gets it to only 20C you save half your boiler bill.  If there is enough sun the hot water is rising and increasing the temp of the top of the tank and if this happens to reach 40C then great.  However in colder months the top of your tank, maybe heated by the boiler, will not be able to extract any solar heat but the bottom will still being fed by the cold water would be able to.
Yup, exactly my thoughts as well.
Quote
I can see the benefit in heating the top of the tank first and then the bottom if your only concentrating on producing some hotter water regardless of quantity or efficiency of the panel.  But in practice is this usable? You start to have a shower not knowing how much hot water is available and it runs out just as your trying to rinse your hair - then what are you going to do?

For me i like the idea of heating the tank from the bottom for max efficiency and having a inline temp programmed electric heater to raise the temp that last little bit if necessary and to act as a insurance policy eg no sun and no boiler on.
The simplest method to ensure you always have hot water would be an immersion heater in the upper section of the cylinder and/or a boiler configured to heat top down. It'll only come on when the solar isn't keeping the cylinder hot enough - and if you have a suitable TMV you can let the cylinder get quite hot when there is enough sun and the supplementary heating won't come on at all.
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djh
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2011, 11:04:32 AM »

However, if you are going to maximum efficiency, then you'd ideally also need a means of detecting the amount of insolation so that you could turn this feature off if there's not enough sun to get anything meaningful out of the panels.

The panels already detect the insolation for you, in terms of what flow rate is achieved at the required temperature (e.g. what percentage duty cycle the pump achieves) and the tank detects it in terms of the rate of increase of temperature at various heights. What would be useful is a forecast of *future* insolation.

The focus on efficiency is misplaced, in my opinion. It is useful in a low solar-fraction system, but once the designed solar fraction increases it is best to optimise usable heat (i.e. exergy) rather than any old heat (energy) in my view. And that's what top-loading does.

Quote
Again it comes down to knowing how the output of the panels varies with collector temperature for differing amounts of insolation - do Navitron have such information for their systems ?

The information is available for *every* panel. That's what is printed on the certificates. That's why the certificates exist. There's a reasonable explanation of how they are used at
http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_collector_efficiency.htm

I think it's well worth spending some time playing with the numbers from different collector types whilst varying the light levels, to get a feel for what the parameters mean.
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Cheers, Dave
DonL
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2011, 11:11:44 AM »

Hi Allen
Simon has already answered your question about twin coils which I have commented on previously    http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13785.msg154713.html#msg154713

I don't remember any feed back from anyone with this system though.

Don
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Schuco solar hot water - 3300kWh/annum, 16 BP 4175N PV panels - 2.8kWp, log burner and back boiler and 18 Ying Li 235 PV panels - 4.2kWp.
SimonHobson
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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 12:08:07 PM »

However, if you are going to maximum efficiency, then you'd ideally also need a means of detecting the amount of insolation so that you could turn this feature off if there's not enough sun to get anything meaningful out of the panels.
The panels already detect the insolation for you, in terms of what flow rate is achieved at the required temperature (e.g. what percentage duty cycle the pump achieves) and the tank detects it in terms of the rate of increase of temperature at various heights.
No, you have not understood what I mean. Reading the temperatures for given flow rates etc doesn't tell you what you need to know - they only tell you what inputs you're getting for the given hydraulic parameters.

What you need to know is "given the amount of insolation, am I better running the collector at high temp and heating the top of the store, or running it at a lower temperature and heating the whole store ?"
Assuming you start off with the system "cold" and wait for the sun to come up, initially it would make sense to heat the whole store - because I'd imagine for a while you just wouldn't get anything meaningful out of the collector if you wait for it to get hot. But, without a (fairly complex ?) model of the system, you don't know what would happen if you switched modes - you can't go on header temperature since you're artificially holding it down by cooling it with the lower cylinder coil.

About the only proxy I can think of would be to look at the pump duty cycle, and rather crudely assume that :
When bottom heating, if pump duty/flow rate goes above some threshold (and the store top is not already hot enough) then you can probably switch to top heating.
When top heating, if pump duty/flow rate drops below some lower threshold (or the store top is hot enough) then you can probably switch to bottom heating.

It would probably do, but would not be optimal.
Quote
The focus on efficiency is misplaced, in my opinion. It is useful in a low solar-fraction system, but once the designed solar fraction increases it is best to optimise usable heat (i.e. exergy) rather than any old heat (energy) in my view. And that's what top-loading does.
Either you gain more heat that you are using, in which case I can see case for top-down heating - but you'll still end up heating the whole store.
Or you'll gain less heat than you are using, in which case you'll be topping it up and all heat gained will subtract from your alternative source of heat. In such cases, you'll be topping up, so if you go for the higher efficiency option then you do less topping up.

Quote
Quote
Again it comes down to knowing how the output of the panels varies with collector temperature for differing amounts of insolation - do Navitron have such information for their systems ?

The information is available for *every* panel. That's what is printed on the certificates. That's why the certificates exist. There's a reasonable explanation of how they are used at
http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_collector_efficiency.htm

I think it's well worth spending some time playing with the numbers from different collector types whilst varying the light levels, to get a feel for what the parameters mean.
Great, but I'll need to look at that when I've got time to get my head round it - and get the puter to plot a few graphs so I can visualise the variables I'm interested in.
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djh
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2011, 12:29:50 PM »

No, you have not understood what I mean. Reading the temperatures for given flow rates etc doesn't tell you what you need to know - they only tell you what inputs you're getting for the given hydraulic parameters.

Quote
About the only proxy I can think of would be to look at the pump duty cycle

No, you simply haven't read what I wrote! You've just stated what I had already said. I said nothing about reading the temperatures for given flow rates, I said the exact opposite.

Quote
Either you gain more heat that you are using, in which case I can see case for top-down heating - but you'll still end up heating the whole store.
Or you'll gain less heat than you are using, in which case you'll be topping it up and all heat gained will subtract from your alternative source of heat. In such cases, you'll be topping up, so if you go for the higher efficiency option then you do less topping up.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or rather, I'll wait until you have run the numbers and see if you then change your opinion. Your analysis as it stands is too simplistic.
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Cheers, Dave
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