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Author Topic: a really big question...  (Read 2282 times)
martin
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 02:24:22 PM »

"His work suggests that it is a viable retrofit option for 'normal houses' "- only when very well-insulated, and underfloor heating is installed, and even then, I still retain my caution re ASHPs in general  -I note that his comparison (of running costs of roughly half the price of a conventional boiler) for heating omits to mention if there are any facts to back up that those are based on a "level playing field" (did he test a "conventional boiler" after all the other improvements?) -  his costs of £767 "for heating"* don't appear that spectacularly brilliant (particularly as he's also contriving to get through around 9 kilowatt hours per day in "other" electricity consumption....

(*at current oil prices, you could run an oil-fired Rayburn on "tickover" for the winter months for about the same sum - if you have solar DHW for the summer months.... whistlie)
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qeipl
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 03:34:56 PM »

Martin,

£767 equates to around 6000kWh/year(?) on heating, which I'm assuming includes the gas for the fire (and DHW?).
3000kWh/year on other electricity probably brings his total energy use up to c.9000kWh/year, which does sound a lot.
Last year, with a similar system, I used c.4700kWh of domestic electricity and c.1600kWh of solid fuel - 6300kWh in total.

I suspect his insulation job is inadequate. There's only 50mm of celotex under the UFH, for example. Also no mention of draught-proofing.
The fans on his ecovector rads will add quite a bit to the annual bill - probably averaging around 100W for the four of them, which will soon add up in winter time.

I agree that the Ecocent works best in houses with low heat loss and lots of solar gain. This Cambridge house looks like it's on the margin.

Malcolm
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chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2011, 03:11:49 PM »

You say "I have pretty much all the insulation and double glazing possible."

This is hardly ever true in the current UK housing stock. What do you actually have?

The single most effective thing you can do to reduce heating bills is insulate, and make airtight, the building, usually externally. A building with 200-300mm insulation all round and good airtightness should have very low heating demands, which may even be most sensibly heated with electric and a small woodburner, which conveniently, you already have.

In many buildings it's actualy the airtightness that really needs work, more than just the insulation. Some more details on that would let us help you more accurately.

Re the ecocent idea, which Martin suggests is only any use in very well-insulated buildings, there is one fitted in a refurbished, with UFH, but not particularly well insulated (just cavity-wall) domestic house near Cambridge and the owner is very pleased with the results and has a lot of good stats on exactly how much energy it uses. Some details here: http://cambridgecarbonfootprint.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/13-Case-Study1.pdf

He did later send me a much more detailed study, which I have somewhere. His work suggests that it is a viable retrofit option for 'normal houses'.

Sorry for the delay, metaphorical fires to fight...

When I said "I have pretty much all the insulation and double glazing possible" it was a sort of shorthand for "I live in a leaky old cottage, with pretty much all the insulation I can easily apply to some bits and relatively up to scratch to others". The bits that don't give me too much worry are those I renovated, fully lined with 50mm cellotex and pb to 13.5" brick walls, 25mm cellotex and pb over existing ceilings and a total of 150mm foam in 600mm of new concrete floors where there's underfloor heating.
The rest (again 13.5" brick, some with a form of dry lining not fully investigated) has groundfloor ceiling heights from 8 to 12 feet and correspondingly (this is very much a cottage) 1st floor ceiling heights from say 50% 'skeiling'/50% flat (and insulated with 8" of spaceblanket) to 100% skeiling where there is no insulation on the slopey bits. There is no heating up there, and as a consequence, if the picturesque door to the quirky winding elm staircase is left open in winter, an avalanche of cold air tumbles down into the room where the woodburner is. Everywhere has double glazing in purpose-made timber frames. All external doors get a winter blanket hung over them.
I know, I know, I should must address the insulation upstairs, but take it from me it is a more complex job than can be easily described - to the point where Mrs Chas and I have reached an uneasy truce over it, and as there's no-one else to complain about 'above' we keep the door shut, have a good electric blanket and put up with it for the moment.

Hence my request for suggestions re the best sort of hardware to buy that might make the biggest differenc, though I do see that to a great extent a fully insulated, airtight sort of gaff probably could be treated differently to my leaky old one and that as a consequence advice is likely to be conditional.

I have come to the provisional conclusion that I should join the FIT crew and subsidise the whole electricity-mad (c£2k pa) with it while the going's good and attend to insulation (currently looking at that superfoil stuff) in the fullness of time. By all means point out the error of my ways, I'm almost infallible but not completely. And thanks for all discussion of my plight, I read it all with interest.

Chas
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chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 06:16:04 PM »

Hi All,

I've started a thread "October 2011 PV quotes comparison" to progress things a bit: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15232.msg171717/topicseen.html#msg171717

where I've posted the quotes on 4kw of PV... I have figures for the originally-intended 2kw too, but you'll see I have such a good price (apparently) on 4 it seems that's the way to go.

The thread's been a bit hijacked but if you can have a look, I'd be pleased to get responses to the figures, particularly if anyone has come across ETSolarM572195 panels, or has an alternative cheap low output panel...

Chas
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biff
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 06:44:52 PM »

a highjack,,!! a highjack you say!!
                            how unusual,who would have thought it,!!there are some among us who tend to wax lyrical,elaborate and go slightly offff at a tangent but highjack,,!! well i declare !! the majority of us are trying to impart valuable knowledge in your direction..
      be firm,,keep trying and all will be well,
                                                      biff
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chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2011, 05:13:13 PM »

Well, who'd have thought it... it all seemed so relatively simple just a month ago and now all is dross-ish following the FIT-cut weekend.

However, reviewing my options (nothing ever seems so bad if you have options) I realise that I was hasty in failing to include a woodfuel boiler in my plans and ignoring Quakered's early suggestion... sorry, Quakered.

While I wait for the PV installer's best guess at whether they can get me into 43p FITs (this still seems the easiest route to subsidising the status quo) maybe I should be more adventurous, look at boilers (log, not chip/pellet) coupled to a heatstore and maybe a solar panel. It could link into the existing electric boiler-heated u/floor and run some conventional rads in the more far flung icy places too... and may be a better long-term bet for me. If I can't get the FIT to help with bills, then it seems cutting bills by alternative heating is the next best thing, and I do have unlimited logwood.

What boilers are out there in the 25-30kw range, or, more particularly, what is a budget figure for a boiler/store installation?

Chas
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