Investing in renewable energy

[renewablejohn]

At the end of the day all I am looking for is an economic rent for the farm for the turbine and the ability to use the export capacity of the grid connection not used by the wind turbine for our biomass plant. ie at 7m/s the turbine output is 50kw allowing 200kw to be exported by the biomass plant. From 12.5-25 m/s output is 250kw therefore no export by the biomass plant.

John

I'm having difficulty getting my head round this bit. I can't quite picture in which direction the electricity is moving between the wind turbine, the biomass plant and the grid. Does the biomass plant also generate electricity for export to the grid?

I'm also unsure of the FIT/ROC arrangement with wind turbines on that scale. Is it the same as PV with a sum for everything generated, regardless of how it is used or exported, and a further payment for that which is actually exported?

If so, how much, if anything, would you expect your useage to detract from the overall income to investors / lenders?

Mike

Mike

The wind turbine and biomass plants both have there own independent meters as the wind turbine is measured on fits at the rate of 19.7p per kwh plus export tarriff to grid 3p. Biomass plant would work under Roc's and is roughly £40 per Mwh plus £45 Roc's although we should qualify for double Roc's.

Connection to grid would be 250kw with 100% wind turbine output exported to grid. In reality the turbine according to manufacturers operates on average 30% of total available output leaving a top up capacity on the grid for the biomass plant of 70%. Being conservative I would say the figures are more likely to be 20% 80%.  Obviously wind turbine income is far more generous due to Fits  than the biomass income due to Rocs.

Because everything is exported income will not be diluted by our own use. 

[cliffski]

I'm hugely confused as to what is being discussed now
I think what you need to do is set up a simple web page or blog explaining, maybe with pictures what you are thinking of doing, and how you would be managing investment in it.
That would also make it way easier for potential investors to point friends and other likely investors at the project. Combing through forum threads can be offputting.

[renewablejohn]

I'm hugely confused as to what is being discussed now
I think what you need to do is set up a simple web page or blog explaining, maybe with pictures what you are thinking of doing, and how you would be managing investment in it.
That would also make it way easier for potential investors to point friends and other likely investors at the project. Combing through forum threads can be offputting.

Sorry to confuse.  Its quite simple really installing a 250kw WES30 wind turbine on the farm for which this whole discussion has been about, To enable that to be connected to the grid our existing single phase grid supply is upgraded to a 3 phase power supply and transformer is installed of 250kw capacity. 

[wookey]

Right, but you are also installing/have installed a digester which can also generate power, but can only export to the degree that the turnip is not using your export capacity.

Re a visit, do I determine from your slightly cryptic comments on page3 that you are near Turton, north of Bolton. Here in fact:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.6524&lon=-2.39725&zoom=13&layers=C&mlat=53.65770&mlon=-2.39683? And is access via school lane as that map suggests or some other way? Looks like someone should edit OSM to include Crowthorne School.

I am very interested in a visit, but it's a fair way from Cambridge, so would prefer to do it when I was heading 'oop north' sometime anyway, rather than next w/e (and cheap train tickets gone already so its £87 return). If you could provide contact details then perhaps something could be arranged in due course. I suspect 'next saturday' is rather short notice for most people, unless they are already fairly local.

[renewablejohn]

Right, but you are also installing/have installed a digester which can also generate power, but can only export to the degree that the turnip is not using your export capacity.

Re a visit, do I determine from your slightly cryptic comments on page3 that you are near Turton, north of Bolton. Here in fact:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.6524&lon=-2.39725&zoom=13&layers=C&mlat=53.65770&mlon=-2.39683? And is access via school lane as that map suggests or some other way? Looks like someone should edit OSM to include Crowthorne School.

I am very interested in a visit, but it's a fair way from Cambridge, so would prefer to do it when I was heading 'oop north' sometime anyway, rather than next w/e (and cheap train tickets gone already so its £87 return). If you could provide contact details then perhaps something could be arranged in due course. I suspect 'next saturday' is rather short notice for most people, unless they are already fairly local.

Wookey

Nearly right. As part of our woodfuel processing business we are installing a superheated steam drying facility for drying woodchip and grass. It will use hot thermal oil heated by a 200 m2 thermal solar roof and woodchip biomass boiler. The waste steam from the process will be used to generate electricity on demand using a steam accumulator which means we can compensate for the lack of generation by the turnip. Obviously turnip power takes precedence over biomass due to the higher Fits return on the turnip as compared to the lower Roc's return on the Biomass.

The farm is actually marked on OSM maps as Hill Top Farm due to its age and can be accessed by public footpath via School Lane or by farm track 100 yds further out of the village from School Lane.
We have an open access policy on the farm so just PM me time and date which is suitable to yourself or to receive my contact details. The first Sunday of every month (1.00-4.00) is our Landshare open day/working party day which anyone is invited to. The only reason for suggesting next Saturday was if I could arrange a site visit of the existing WES 30 in Bury with the local farmer which in hindsight might be unrealistic.

[EccentricAnomaly]

The farm is actually marked on OSM maps as Hill Top Farm...

I suspect you're thinking of OS (Ordnance Survey) maps. When Wookey referenced OSM he meant OpenStreetMap.

[renewablejohn]

The farm is actually marked on OSM maps as Hill Top Farm...

I suspect you're thinking of OS (Ordnance Survey) maps. When Wookey referenced OSM he meant OpenStreetMap.

Sorry I am still old school relying on Ordnance Survey maps. Turbine would be poking its head above the hill marked 264 mtrs at approx 275 mtrs.

[renewablejohn]

Its been a while but finally got my head around some figures.

The tried and tested solution would be something similar to the ecotricity bond issue so rough thoughts are as follows.

Term 10 years repaid 10% straight line per annum
Minimum investment 10k
Max Investment per individual 50k
Initial annual return 7.5%

Initial project WES30 250kw wind turbine expected cost 600k

financed by 60 x bondholders 10k each

Bonds issued first come first served.




Any thoughts anybody

Obviously will need to do full prospectus and have planning permission etc etc  

Is it now to risky to even consider given what DECC has done to the PV Fits

[cliffski]

maybe not, cutting the FITs for new installs is a long way from cutting it for existing projects. Obviously if thy are cut before you get going, it's a different matter.
I'm not sure what you mean  by the 7.5% vs 10% return though?

[renewablejohn]

Cliffski

Its a capital repayment of 10% per annum and an initial revenue return of 7.5% so for example at the end of year one a £10,000 investment would have a return of capital of £1000 and income of £750. Year 2 you would now have 9000  invested with a return of capital of £1000 and income of £750 etc etc 

The alternative but less attractive would be a fixed 7.5% return so £675 in the 2nd year £600 in the third etc etc.

[wookey]

Looks sensible to me John. I look forward to a prospectus. That minimum 10K may be a bit steep for the average investor. For example, I could put in 3K without having to worry too much that this farmer-john chap may go bust or otherwise screw it up, but 10K is rather more serious. You are presumably primarily thinking about limiting admin by limiting numbers? 

In the meantime ecobonds are back for a second round: ecobonds come in £500 lumps. Don't spend all your money - save some for RJ :-)

[JohnS]

600k of bonds for a 600k project.  Who is putting in the equity?  Who gets the profits when all the bondholders are repaid?  Is this person taking any risk if the project fails?

If it is heads you win and tails I loose, why would I invest?

John

[renewablejohn]

Looks sensible to me John. I look forward to a prospectus. That minimum 10K may be a bit steep for the average investor. For example, I could put in 3K without having to worry too much that this farmer-john chap may go bust or otherwise screw it up, but 10K is rather more serious. You are presumably primarily thinking about limiting admin by limiting numbers? 

In the meantime ecobonds are back for a second round: ecobonds come in £500 lumps. Don't spend all your money - save some for RJ :-)

In the small company bondholding rules I was looking at the maximum number of bondholders was 75 otherwise it was a different scheme which seemed to involve a lot more paperwork.

[renewablejohn]

600k of bonds for a 600k project.  Who is putting in the equity?  Who gets the profits when all the bondholders are repaid?  Is this person taking any risk if the project fails?

If it is heads you win and tails I loose, why would I invest?

John

The risk that I would be taking on board is the annual repayment of capital of 60k and interest of 45k which is fine if the turbine generates 120k but if it only generates 90k then I pick up the shortfall. Similarly if the government decides to reduce the fits from 19.7p to 15p then income generated is reduced and I pick up the shortfall. Once the bond holders are repaid I then receive an income stream sufficient to replace the turbine at the end of 25 years.

[ceresbeith]

there is a project where i used to live in wales to install a community turbine
http://www.awelamantawe.org.uk/
sorry dont know how to put this on as a working link