T&R hand crank Lister diesel welder generator

[al_uk]

One of these may be coming my way. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about it, and whether it would be any use as a backup generator? It has 2 220V take offs, which are marked as 1650W. The welding output is as per the pic. How clean a waveform can I expect from the 220V outputs?

Is it worth bothering with?

Does anyone have/have a link to a service manual for the engine or generator? It started 1st crank, after having sat in a shed for who knows how long. It was very noisy!

How old is it likely to be?

Cheers!

[camillitech]

Hi Al,

it's a Lister ST1 engine, probably 1500rpm and around 5hp. Lots of info in the side bar of my blog, including manual and how to date it, probably mid seventies early eighties. The engine itself is bombproof but I know nothing of the generator, however being a single cylinder and slow revving it will make your lights flicker ever so slightly and you may have issues with some modern electronics, especially on washing machines, though computers seem quite happy. It's not so much the speed that makes the lights flicker as the crank going round at slightly different speeds relative to where the piston is on it's stroke. Twins and triples don't suffer from this as the other cylinder(s) smooth it out.

Good luck, Paul

[Philip R]

Why do you not contact them. Have a look at www.transformers.co.uk. This is the heavy electrical side of T&R, not the test equipment side.(Although the address is the same.

I have dealt with them in the past, getting Brentford regulators overhauled. They keep extensive records of equipment built in the past, even if not made today.

I would guess that a the high voltage windings only consist of a few percent of the armature winding, so the rating does not match the apparent size of the alternator frame.

PhilipR

[al_uk]

Paul, Philip, thank you very much for the replies, I'll start reading. Judging by the plate on the generator which says 3000rpm, I guess the engine runs at this speed?

As a thought, how feasible would it be to reduce the rpm to 1500 or less and change out the generator head for something that can operate at 1500rpm generating either DC feeding into an inverter, or 240VAC directly?

Would running the engine at different (slower) rpm cause any problems?

The objective for the system is to provide backup power in the event of a power cut. I would be happy with 1kW output.

[rogeriko]

Clean it up paint it and sell it to a welding company and with the money buy a dedicated 230 volt Lister. Check ebay its probably worth 400 pounds+

[camillitech]

Paul, Philip, thank you very much for the replies, I'll start reading. Judging by the plate on the generator which says 3000rpm, I guess the engine runs at this speed?

As a thought, how feasible would it be to reduce the rpm to 1500 or less and change out the generator head for something that can operate at 1500rpm generating either DC feeding into an inverter, or 240VAC directly?

Would running the engine at different (slower) rpm cause any problems?

The objective for the system is to provide backup power in the event of a power cut. I would be happy with 1kW output.

All perfectly do able Al, not sure if you can adjust it or need a new governor spring though, try asking on here http://www.listerengine.com/smf/ but perhaps Roger has the best idea 

Cheers, Paul

[Justme]

If you reduce the RPM you will also reduce the BHP / torque. So the size of alternator head you can fit will be much smaller than it has now.

I would guess that halving the RPM will quarter the available kva.

[camillitech]

Hi Al,

since we last spoke I've been 'on the case' with 'one who knows'    I kinda thought that 3000rpm was a bit odd for an ST2 and so it is. They were normally 1500rpm and 5hp for 50hz or 1800rpm and 6hp for 60hz. However it seems they built a few 3000rpm 9.5hp engines with a much lighter flywheel purely for welding sets. They were great welders but the highly stressed ST1 wasn't up to the job as it was never really designed to run much faster than 2200rpm 

You can drop the revs by fitting the heavier governor weights and flywheel but I'd take Roger's advice and get a proper one 

Good luck, Paul

[Billy]

I did think 3000 was not a sustainable rpm and I for one would take cover.   

I thought epicyclic reduction and then thought nah.

billy
 

[biff]

so thats where the chinese got the wrong idea. .they copied the wong won,
                                                                     biff

[al_uk]

Hi Paul, thank you very much for following up. I'll know on Monday whether I can have the generator or not, so will take some better photos and report back if and when I get it home.

Cheers,
Al

[Billy]

Oh very good biff, lol.   

billy
 

[al_uk]

Just to follow up - unfortunately the generator ended up with a home elsewhere.

So that still leaves me wanting a generator. I don't expect to use it much, but we do get power cuts for several hours at a time on occasion.

My thoughts are that I either want a suitcase generator - small, petrol, economical and with a variable throttle, such as either the Clarke EG1000 or the Honda EU10i. Is the extra cost of the Honda worth it for my intended use?

Alternatively I could get an old slow revving diesel, which means less of an issue storing fuel for long periods of time, although the consumption and maintenance will be higher.

[camillitech]

Hi Al,

probably good that you missed the Lister, I love them but they do need mounting properly in a dedicated bunker, loads of air circulation and SOLID concrete  great if your 'off grid' and using it a lot but for your needs the Honda would probably be the best bet. The Clarke would probably be OK if it has a Honda engine but steer clear of Chinese copies, stands back and awaits  dogs abuse from Biff et al 

Cheers, Paul

[SimonHobson]

What you need depends a lot on what you want to do with it.
If it's just for intermittent use (ie when the power is off) and you aren't too fussy about anything then I think any of the portable gennies would do the job. The main consideration is what power capacity to get.

If you only need to run light loads (lights etc) then you really don't need much above the nominal load you want to run. Once you start talking motors then the starting load on those is such that you need a considerably bigger genny. I bought my mates 3kVA "no name" petrol genny when he packed up, and it's done some sterling service - but only occasionally. Last time it ran all day at a customer's site keeping their IT going during a planned outage - we just had to tell the UPS to be a little less sensitive as the drop when the genny picked up the load was making the UPS switch back to battery each time, and it just kept cycling initially.

And that brings me to another matter - how are you planning on connecting it ?
The "time honoured" DIY method is a lead with a plug on each end (not, not a socket on one end and plug on the other). One plug in genny, other in wall socket, open main switch and fire up genny. I believe in the sparks trade these leads are known as "widow makers" because of the risks from exposed live plug pins

At my mates, when he had a planned outage, I wired the cable into a spare breaker in the board and opened the main switch - again with similar risks, but we were able to keep the lights on and boil the kettle (made friends with the neighbouring units with that  )

The correct (and safe) way to do it is to install a power inlet, and a changeover switch between main supply and your consumer unit.


PS - another mate used to have a portable welding genny (no idea what make), and it was darn handy bit of kit. You can't weld with a normal genny and mains welder unless it's a considerably over-specced genny. I have tried it, but the genny output just collapses when trying to get the ark going even though in theory it should be able to keep an ark going once lit.