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Author Topic: IMAG (induction motor as generator) questions.  (Read 1036 times)
julian
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« on: November 06, 2011, 12:02:51 PM »

Ive been reading more about IMAG stuff, as i spotted a motor in a barn arround here, and the owner told me that it had been sitting there for four years, and, when he got arround to it, he was going to scrap it....


Anyhow, its a 5hp, 3ph Brook motor.

Ive read that anything over about 3kw is generally Delta rather than Star config, so only easily configured to 3ph generation.

Which is fine for me, as ill be wanting to rectify to DC for feed to a grid tied inverter (and the ripple from 3ph will be much less than 1ph)


...but


my inverter (SMA 2500) can be configured to present different loads at different input voltages, to give a exponential response suitable for a wind turbine

...anyhow, this 'feature' can also be used with an engine driving the generator, so that the rpm of the engine can be varied also - so at lower rpms, the voltage from the generator will fall, and the inverter will present less load, and, hence, the engine will not stall etc.


so that's all well and good so far, and this is completely achievable, as Dick Jotec has been proving for some time now.



...however

Dick has a permenant magnet alternator, which, of course, does not require excitation. 

Im trying to do the same, on the cheap, with an old motor, that will require excitation before it starts to generate.

(remember, as the output is recitified to DC and then fed to an inverter, there will be no current to sync to)


So, this is where im unsure, and would like someone with better knowledge than me to clarify -


Say, if i configure the gearing of the induction motor to run at
  • rpm, if i drop the rpm by, say 37%, will i still be able to get the motor to excite, and generate?  And what will likly happen to voltage?


And then if i raise it by 37%, what then?


The engine that i have will run at about 300 - 650rpm, so, what im thinking of doing is setting up the gearing at, say, 475rpm, and then running at between 300 and 650rpm (hence the 37% margin either way)


Thanks, Julian


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guydewdney
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 12:36:48 PM »

unlikely to work at 37% speed change.  Look for C2C as the exciter circuit. Look at cheap 2nd hand inverter drives with regenerative mode - they can be used to create a braking effect - the DC bus inside might do what you want.
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Mostie
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 01:02:13 PM »

apparently......... if you spin it faster than the indicated RPM on the motors data plate it will generate
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julian
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 01:34:57 PM »

apparently......... if you spin it faster than the indicated RPM on the motors data plate it will generate


Yep, if connected to a 3ph supply.  The waveform will, i understand, sync and evreything.

...however, im rectifying the 3ph output to DC, so theres no external current to excite the coils.
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julian
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 01:43:03 PM »

unlikely to work at 37% speed change.  Look for C2C as the exciter circuit. Look at cheap 2nd hand inverter drives with regenerative mode - they can be used to create a braking effect - the DC bus inside might do what you want.

Ive been discussing this on another forum also, and i now understand that i wont be able to get the IMAG to excite if run underspeed, however, there's a possibilty that i can run it overspeed to get the voltage range that i want.


Im not having much luck with google searching for "+C2C exciter circuit" - could you give me some more pointers?

I will now go and read your thread here -

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8245.0


which came up when i googled " inverter drives with regenerative mode" : )
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Mostie
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 01:46:13 PM »

I found this, it may be of use to you

http://www.redrok.com/cimtext.pdf
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clivejo
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 05:08:37 PM »

apparently......... if you spin it faster than the indicated RPM on the motors data plate it will generate


Yep, if connected to a 3ph supply.  The waveform will, i understand, sync and evreything.

...however, im rectifying the 3ph output to DC, so theres no external current to excite the coils.

Be very careful that the two are in sync before connecting, if they are fully out of sync there will be damage!  For example if the engine is running and you suddenly close a switch to the supply.  It will be a game of chance, as it depends how in/out of sync they are! Best way I've seen done is to power the motor via the supply first of all, the motor will start the engine for you and just bring the engine up to speed, slowly increasing the revs, there will be an equilibrium point where it is neither drawing or generating power.  Applying the throttle on the engine will then see power flowing back to the supply.

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Mostie
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 05:32:42 PM »

Clivejo, I dont think he wants to connect it directly to the grid.
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julian
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2011, 08:25:24 PM »

Clivejo, I dont think he wants to connect it directly to the grid.


You are right - I don't.  I was just replying to the comment of what was physically possible (but, as i understand it, not legal)

I have a G83 inverter that i intend to use, hence not being concerned about frequency, as itll all be rectified to DC anyhow.

The only bit that im having trouble working out (at this stage) is how the induction motor will perform as its spun increasingly overspeed.  I can configure the GTI to reduce the amps, as the voltage rises, so im not concerned about damaging the windings by drawing too high a current, but im unsure about the capacitor side of things, as, as to if that part of the system will become damaged by significant overspeed (even in light of me reducing the ampage load)
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guydewdney
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »

personally, I think you are on a hiding to nowhere - GTI means just that Grid Tied.... I think you need to evaluate the issue, and you either need to come to the same conclusion as me - 1) perm mag generator and inverter or 2) inverter brake / motor drive system - or option 3.... But it isnt going to be a self excited IMAG....


If IMAG worked - then why wouldnt the genny manufacturers do it?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=imag+self+excited&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=6WB&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=X&ei=4TW4Tq2ZCIKa8QOdw9z4BA&ved=0CBwQvgUoAA&q=imag+self+excited&nfpr=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4aca6e5e5fd6e98d&biw=1366&bih=621
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