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Author Topic: Insulating Thermal stores  (Read 1795 times)
book_woorm
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« on: November 15, 2011, 09:15:13 AM »

Does anybody have experience of sticking Kingspan/Celotex to its self? if so what did you use?

The solar thermal system in the house we bought has a supposedly preinsulated tank BUT checking on its overnight temperature drop starting at a nominal 70DegC (the UFH and the boiler were deliberately switched off) suggests that it is loosing 5+ kWHrs a day!.  I'm thinking therfore of adding some more insulation but but as this is a 500 x 2000 mm size store you cant buy the traditional jackets big enough. So its make something out of kingspan or similar that would mean shaping and sticking the Kingspan together.
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A.L.
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 09:33:57 AM »

hello and welcome,

Quote
suggests that it is loosing 5+ kWHrs a day!. 
- if it has at least 50mm sprayed foam can i suggest that most of the loss is by conduction/single pipe convection along the pipework
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Justme
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »

How many temp sensors does the TS have?
You cant just use one sensor & times it up by the volume to get total energy stored or lost.

If you are just using one then you need to remember that the energy lost across its height will not be even.

The top will be hotter than the bottom so will lose more.

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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 01:55:55 PM »

Hi book_woorm
Any use from previous discussion?

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5923.msg60209.html#msg60209

Iain
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book_woorm
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 05:39:22 PM »

Picking up on the comments sofar Iain this precicely what I'm trying to do but I want to stick the foam together so the bits that I thread round the back of the tank stay together. Doing the sums on the extenal dimensions of the store and its declaired internal volume shout at you that there is less than an inch of insulation under the nice outside casing! Which is not good for a system that was marketed in 2006! I got a lot of info of the previous owner of the property who commisioned the system but ther are no detailed specs for the tank Neither the suppliers of the system nor the manufacturers of the tank will tell me the areas of the 3 coils or what the insulation is, each says speak to the other.

The store is not loosing excessive heat allong the pipe work. All pipe work has 25mm of climaflex/armaflex in the entire plant room. The previous ownere had not put any on and I initially though that this was the cause of the plant room getting up to 45Deg C. Even  with the pipes insulated it still sits at 30Deg C! The real clincher though is the temprature drop on the content of the cylinder overnight. There are 2 thermostats two temprature probes and a thermometer that I've stuck in the tapping on the top that's for pouring fernox into the system. The readings for these in the evening start at 77 at the top through to 45 at the bottom as you would expect. Eleven hours latter in the morning they have all dropped by at least 7 degrees. ( slightly more at the top than the bottom as would be expected) As I said before there was no heat input and nothing taken out other than radiation off the outside of the tank.

Doing the sum thats 280 lt of water x 4.18 kJ/Kg degc x 7 degc = 8912.8 kJ in 11 hours or 206 watts or 4.9 kWhr per day

In practice it is loosing more than this as it is hotter at the top. A couple of inches of kingspan should bring the temprature loss right down and pay for the cost in next to no time provided I can find a sensible way to add secondary insulation neatly and effectively.

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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 05:49:06 PM »

Oy oy bookwoorm, welcome.

There is a firm that sprays the underside of roof tiles with squirty foam to any thickness you like, they also sell kits to repair a few square metres, after a roof repair/mod. It maybe easier to spray on a second coat of foam than piece together bits of rigid board.
Ill try to find a link and post it up for you.

Desp
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JohnS
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 06:39:31 PM »

This stuff http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhesives+Sealants/Expanding+Foam/Dry+Wall+Foam+Fix+750ml/d180/sd2857/p60449 or this stuff http://www.screwfix.com/p/insta-stik-expanding-foam-grab-adhesive-750ml/72793 are good at sticking kingspan/celotex to itself or to walls.

If necessary, make it oversize and pour polystrene beads or the stuff that is used to pack parcels into the gap between the new casing and the store.

There is a thread from someone who did what you are doing about 3 or 6 months ago.  If I find it, I shall post a link.

Note to others - the thread I am refering to had some photos of a Landrover in it.  Anyone able to find it quicker than me?


John
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 07:42:26 PM »

Here you go-:http://www.expandingfoamkits.co.uk/index.php?gclid=CNbficmyuawCFVAntAodgzJ9pA


very messy Grin Grin

Desp
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JohnS
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 08:35:14 PM »


very messy Grin Grin

Desp

Firstly, the links in my post are to foam adhesive which only expands a little.

Secondly, I am sure that many of you have read this tale of expanding foam but if you have not:

A friend of mine once built a canoe. He spent a long time on it and it was a work of art.
Almost the final phase was to fill both ends with polyurethane expanding foam.
He duly ordered the bits from Mr Glasplies (an excellent purveyor of all things fibreglass) and it arrived in two packs covered with appropriately dire warnings about expansion ratios and some very good notes on how to use it.
Unfortunately he had a degree, worse still two of them. One was in Chemistry, so the instructions got thrown away and the other in something mathematical because in a few minutes he was merrily calculating the volume of his craft to many decimal places and the guidelines got binned as well.
He propped the canoe up on one end, got a huge tin, carefully measured the calculated amounts of glop, mixed them and quickly poured the mixture in the end of the canoe (The two pack expands very rapidly).
I arrived as he was completing this and I looked in to see the end chamber over half full of something Cawdors Witches would have been proud of. Two thing occurred to me, one was the label which said in big letters: "Caution - expansion ration 50:1" (or something similar) and the other that the now empty tins said "approximately enough for 20 small craft"
Any comment was drowned out by a sea of yellow brown foam suddenly pouring out of the middle of the canoe and the end of the canoe bursting open. My friend screamed and leapt at his pride and joy which was knocked to the ground as he started trying to bale handfuls of this stuff out with his hands.
Knocking the craft over allowed the still liquid and not yet fully expanded foam to flow to the other end of the canoe where it expanded and shattered that end as well.
A few seconds later and we had a canoe with two exploded ends, a mountain of solid foam about 4ft high growing out of the middle, and a chemist firmly embedded up to his armpits in it.
At this stage he discovered the reaction was exothermic and his hands and arms were getting very hot indeed. Running about in small circles in a confined space while glued to the remains of a fairly large canoe proved ineffective so he resorted to screaming a bit instead.
Fortunately a Kukri was to hand so I attacked the foam around his hands with some enthusiasm. The process was hindered by the noise he was making and the fact he was trying to escape while still attached to the canoe.
Eventually I managed to hack out a lump of foam still including most of his arms and hands. Unfortunately my tears of laughter were not helping as they accelerated the foam setting.
Seeking medical help was obviously out of the question, the embarrassment of having to explain his occupation (Chief Research Chemist at a major petrochemical organisation) would simply never have been lived down. Several hours and much acrimony later we had removed sufficient foam (and much hair) to allow him to move again. However he still looked something like a failed audition for Quasimodo with red burns on his arms and expanded blobs of foam sticking everywhere. My comment that the scalding simple made the hairs the foam was sticking to come out easier was not met with the enthusiasm I felt it deserved.
I forgot to add that in retrospect rather unwisely he had set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house (the only place he later explained with sufficient headroom for the canoe - achieved by poking it up the stairwell.
Having extricated him we now were faced with the problem of a canoe construction kit embedded in a still gurgling block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails and quite a lot of wallpaper.
At this point his wife and her mother came back from shopping......
Oh yes - and he had been wearing the pullover Mum in law had knitted him for his birthday the week before.
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 08:48:06 PM »

Presumably you were without a paddle too!
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dhaslam
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 08:49:34 PM »

Why not just make  a frame around the tank and use  sheets  of insulation?      You might get two sides out of  each 2.4X1.2 metre sheet.
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dinitro
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 09:54:00 PM »

Too much thought into a simple problem.

I bought 3 standard jackets and some gaffa tape.

used the gaffa tape to tape up the 'petals' of the insulation jacket to form longer petals.  So you end up with a jacket that is for a long cylinder.

Since my cylinder is also wider than a standard cylinder I created more of these petals.

Installed the petals as per a standard cylinder jacket and used bungee cord to hold jacket in place.

with the multiple pipe connections it makes a snug fit.

dinitro
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 10:08:32 PM »

+1 with JohnS
expandy foam sticks the stuff together very well, and a back filling with beads is a good way of being able to get back to the tank conections etc.. when you need to
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book_woorm
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »

Thanks to everybody for thoughts and suggestions. I've now got a handle on how to tackle the job.
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 09:00:07 PM »

If it's inside an enclosed space, and bearing in mind the story about expanding foam and the canoe ...

How about a large plastic bag threaded down the back of the cylinder, and pour in some expanding foam ? It'll expand to fill the available space, and the plastic bag should prevent it permanently bonding the tank in place. It's also how they make seats to exactly fit racing car drivers - they sit on a plastic bag in the bare seat shell, the foam is poured into the bag and moulds to perfectly fit their body.
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