Navi forum exterior cladding, how'd you make it "speed-fit" for the masses?

[MR GUS]

I cannot see the nation (or any nation for that matter) giving up internal living space at cost to greatly increased insulation performance lower bills, in part due to harpies such as the Daily fail comdemning anything & everything, sadly then sticking in the mindset of many.... including effwit politicians, & "ill-advisors" with their own negative ((financial)) agenda's..

We've had a few threads that have touched on external insulation over the past few years that are now coming to the fore... stirring the collective forum brain.

So for many modern "ie since say 1970 brick & block housing stock what sort of quick & easy solution could we come up with that could be replicated at low cost, increasing payback for the consumer.

obviously we have had nice wee joist hangers in pressed metal for many years now so could we not think about a rail system along the same  format that can then be covered over by the likes of rendering, hardieboard etc?

My ideal has been to be able to deliver the option in a twin level manner, in order to be able to diy a ground floor wall which is sealed & angled for water run off, so as finances allow a second stage could be achieved, this potentially would allow the initial stage to be carried out without scaffolding (& the expense) & sealing to each floors would assist weatherproofing integrity.

A bit like costs of doing a loft but on a larger scale, so for example joe bloggs is encouraged to diy 2 exposed outer walls of their living room,  the exterior of a 16 x 12 ft room for example with the  upper limits of the insulation reaching to the
joists of the next floor, (ok i'm no builder) but with say an achievable cost of say £400

The ability to add an exterior insulation to your main living room (with overlap) has the potential to be a DIY install purchased from your typical diy barn.
I'd go with wherever possible of wookeys "overkill" ideal of say 120 -150 mm celotex type material within a simple framework.

What sort of keylock assembly (eg ikea  furniture) could you envisage to access & maintain areas if required, eg acess to downpipes as illustrated by a forum members recent pics?

My other concerns are base pads for lower rails what sort of thing would be required do you reckon, as these would be areas that would be in contact with damp, prone to knocks, poor drivers ..etc
& how to extend existing double glazing window sills without it looking naff & interfering with the extended insulation, I don't see why a mere sill should interfere with the amount of insulation you need to use.



Angle bracket example...

http://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/en/products/90mm-x-150mm-x-60mm-angle-bracket-heavy-duty

restraint straps,

I'm going to price up (none trade) the nearest I can think of to see how feasible a pressed galv product kit would be for a few typical frontages, would love some help on this folks, eg maisonettes that'd require an insulation frontage only, realistically we're living in smaller spaces not larger, thinking starter homes etc.

Services, could be ducted or removed & replaced (eg a shoddy sky install).

If sticking to wood battens (probably cheaper & definitely more sustainable  how simple to engineer the keylock at point of timber being cut / planed.
Would you have metpost type  bottom brackets drilled into the ground / wall /both to provide a tough weight supportive base board (most weighty elements would be battens & the spread weight of hardieboard (or similar) not forgetting exterior finish.

I simply don't see why this should be an expensive fix if produced in a modular fashion that can then be  broken down to individual nuances of most buildings design.

Another question I find myself asking is what is the typical eaves overhang of your uk housing stock (ie bargeboards etc).

Surely this sort of thing is a project any half decent college should have already played around with & therefore solutions!?  

It needn't be about cutting edge tech, it does need to be about common sense & practicality, as many on here demonstrate daily.

[dhaslam]

You are right about the need to have suitable  products for external insulation  but for most it  is going to need   a professional  at least for the final finish.     It something that should be  done for as many l old buildings  as possible,   even , with care, some  listed ones.   

So much  gas and oil is being used for home and  business heating  instead of being used for cooking,  transport and  other uses that don't  have  easy alternatives   that the reserves are going to run out nearly twice as quickly as they should.    External insulation  is the necessary  change that can bring older houses up to near passive  standard  but to date unfortunately it  doesn't give a financial saving  in the short term.    Suitable  easy to use products could change all that.       

[MR GUS]

Too right DH, which is why i'm looking at something you could do yourself (well with a mate) with use of basic tools a couple of ladders to raise those bulky wind susceptible boards & heavier cement boards.

then it's more acceptable to have the last licks professionally finished, another option of course with cement boards is the wood finish option, or wood cladding for instance.. which if you've got a simple enough design in place for what go's before should make cladding an easy process.

[MR GUS]

To my minds eye this process should be as simple as a kitchen planner on a pc, (again a visit to your diy shed) or via a non profit council department / government firm  w(preferably local council, who without interference from building control could & would spec houses within their area as part of the ongoing "greening of local housing stock & councils carbon reductions.

I don't see that this sort of thing should be put in the hands of double glazing firms or else this would go to total pot via inflated costs & the usual controversy...
Which is another reason to keep it simple & therefore out of the hands of alleged specialists*  ...cowboys.

Another covering option of course could be treated metal sheeting.. have seen enough of it used on factory units & crofts in scotland, it would be cladding after all.

[Baz]

Wood has become staggeringly expensive so a system needing minimal framing is needed. Internal stud walls are being made out of thin tin profiles which might be an option. I think anything involving glue is out as glue doesn't last. So perhaps metal pieces for all the edges and framing around pipes, then a semiridgid insulation board that is screwed to the wall with a special low conductivity screw and big washer. Outside cladding perhaps with various textures stamped on. This is where it could all end up really ugly. It is bad enough with stock bricks being used all over the country removing any regional character.
Well no way any of this is going on my granite walls.

[Mudman]

few thoughts:
yes to a way to make it more diyable- and ways to do part of the job in stages.
i see lots of end walls with no windows or downpipes and think that even if the house just did that side it must make a big difference and be a lot simpler than dealing with the obstructions, and once people see/feel the difference, they could tackle the harder bits in subsequent years.
I take courage that the tower blocks near us are being fitted with ewi- looks like 100mm of fibre board and then render (sometimes with fake brick look alike covering). this means there are more people who know how to fit the stuff than a few years ago- maybe it can become mainstream trade knowledge?
mm

[smegal]

I'd go for something like 3" thick sheets that can take a no more nails style adhseive, are not damaged by water and decorative on the outside.

[Bodidly]

Having done the resent slate hanging job on my parents house I would have to agree there must be an easier way. I went to a home building and renovating show at the weekend and there were a lot of samples of exterior insulation on show most are EPS with a fine plastic mesh with a thin coat of render. On simple clear walls you might be able to have full height pre made panels with a tongue and groove edge bonded to the wall. But as I discovered with the slate hanging  the majority of the work is in building around the windows and other features.

Beau

[MR GUS]

Any comment on hanger type fixings (as in bedded into mortar) & screwed into brickwork (inevitably)?
What would you envisage as below the base rail where its' in contact with the ground (or is that preferable as a base lip)? a base, rail or otherwise, centres for stud-work (be it metal or wood).

Like I say, (& others have said) Initially I don't see the majority of a wall to be a problem, the problems occur with windows. vents etc being boxed & accomodated for, which is why i'd opt (I think) for a large amount of pressed metal that can be punch cut at speed for uniformity & cost effectiveness.

What extra grips would you employ drilled through in strategic places to seat / clip into place to assist assembly & safe re-useable removal? ...how detrimental would a smattering of these be over each full sheet? ..as I guess ideally we want nothing to penetrate through the foam / foil core realistically do we.
I've been mulling this over since hanging a set of blinds in my daughters room way back.
Dedicated, reinforced protected corner pieces (channels)? to go over your typical right angle? ..so you stick that on first & build along?

 ..the thing to do is make it as 3rd world friendly as possible (design wise) & make it as easy to deconstruct for other aspects of maintenence (& avoid too much waste down the line).

security fittings? (anti-theft)
 Do you silicone sealant it, or better, what does foil / foil phenolic board & that sort of material NOT like to come into contact with?

[MR GUS]

..where the hell are you Biff!?

[Baz]

Where does the vapour barrier go with external insulation?
I don't see a problem with screws through the insulation as the bridging is insignificant though I imagine if it is a big market as you envisage then a special low conduction screw would be invented like low loss wall ties have been. They can be sealed with a dob of silicone.
I think at the base a special type of block about the size of a thermalite block but totally impervious to water could be used up to dpc level. A version with holes would go over air vents. This would be easy DIY on a thin concrete foundation.
I don't like the sound of skims of render as it only takes a crack to let in water to ruin everything.

[MR GUS]

I've spoken to the head of uk sales (having perused the HB site) as to the much increased product range available in the U.S. (long chat) it looks, if all go's well a large panels in the region of 4,200 x 325 x 14mm & 4,200 x 405 x 14mm with a lot of variety inbetween..

But In all likelihood i'm going to have to go to France next year to make plans & get stock unavailable to Europe currently..
So really i've set a bit of a challenge for myself, ..whilst i'd like to develop a faster fit system based on existing product out there i'm quite keen to get the basic external wrap principals  down in order to understand what I need to overcome.
Therefore i'm mailing them as to a project & for assistance, uk housing stock & build technique is so different to many countries & retro fitting the existing housing is a big prospect.

So i'm going to attempt to do this based on one or 2 (possibly 3 ) rooms along the most exposed elemental aspects in order to try & improve core use rooms as much as possible on a limited diy budget.
Now to see if I can get the local fire service to bring out their thermal camera for a long term before shot or 2, hopefully I can get the local council bods interested based on projects we've done with them previously.
"gulp"

Have also found a nifty little tool for one man planking siding jobs http://www.solosider.com/index.html ..what I like about it is the fastidious 1 / 16th incremental adjustments it's capable of via a simple dial in system.

Now to do some costings based on area, proposed materials, fuel used fuel saved estimations for similar houses in the street, gas, oil, electric to get an idea of cost & returns based on this winter, before we even stick a nail up!

what the hell am I likely to be getting myself into!?  

wife simply shook her head!
 

[desperate]

Go for it Gus, it is an idea that's nearly ready to blossom. There must be millions of houses that need doing that fall outside any grant or green deal type BS.

Regarding fixings, metal brackets sound a bit over the top to me, we used hammer in plastic fixings to hang cabling from a reinforced slab on a job a while back, just drill and bash. I wonder if there is something similar that could be used as well as adhesive, it would be quick and DIYable. It could be that the board gets dotted and dabbed up and then the drill and bash doofers would go through the board and hold an EML over, ready for the spread?

I dunno really, just thinking out loud, but I will be doing cactusville in the spring so I watch with interest.

ATB

Desp

[biff]

hi gus,
       im a bit behind the times right now.i will try and catch up,no im not trying out the latest batch of poooteen in the bog hotel im just lying low for another few days  .
                                                                               biff

[desperate]

Hallo again Gus, these were the doofers we used

http://www.screwfix.com/p/masonry-mount-black-9mm-pack-of-100/72199

They were amazingly strong, a bigger version with a 5cm washer like head could be just the ticket.

Desp