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Author Topic: UK's faith in nuclear power threatens renewables, says German energy expert  (Read 16603 times)
martin
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« on: November 29, 2011, 01:15:54 PM »

from - http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/28/nuclear-uk-renewable-energy

"Jochen Flasbarth, who is advising German government on its nuclear phase-out, says UK's wind and solar industry will suffer

Building new nuclear power stations will make it harder for the UK to switch to renewable energy, said one of the top German officials leading the country's nuclear energy phase-out.

Germany said shortly after the Fukushima disaster in March that it would phase out its nuclear plants by 2022, while the UK is planning to build eight new nuclear plants as well as massively increase the amount of energy generated from wind power.

But Jochen Flasbarth, president of the Environmental Protection Agency in Germany, who advises the German government, said: "We are not missionaries, and every country will have to find its own way in energy policy, but it is obvious that nuclear plants are too inflexible and cannot sufficiently respond to variations in wind or solar generation, only gas [power stations] do."

Flasbarth robustly defended Germany's nuclear phase-out, saying it would be smoother than critics think. "The phase-out is doable and I don't expect unsolvable problems," he told the Guardian in an interview. "I wonder why Germany feels the pressure to defend its decision, but not the countries who stick to nuclear energy, which has been proved to be unsustainable."

He said he did not expect power shortages and it would not be necessary to import nuclear power from neighbouring countries such as the Czech Republic. "During the last month, there was no need for electricity imports due to capacity shortfalls in Germany. Short-term imports were merely market-driven," he said.

Nuclear power is deeply unpopular in Germany, with polls showing around 80% of Germans backing Angela Merkel's decision this year to phase out nuclear faster than planned.

A new poll published on Friday suggests that globally, just 22% of people agree that "nuclear power is relatively safe and an important source of electricity". However, the Globescan poll of 23,231 people in 23 countries showed that support in the UK actually rose from 33% to 37% since 2005. That chimes with a British Science Association-commissioned poll published in September showing UK support for nuclear power has remained steady since Fukushima. It found 41% of respondents agreed that the benefits of nuclear power outweighed the risks, up to 38% in 2010 from 32% in 2005.

Flasbarth also rebutted suggestions that Germany's nuclear phase-out could increase its greenhouse gas emissions, which it plans to cut 40% by 2020. Stephan Kohler, head of the German Energy Agency, has criticised the phase-out, saying that it contradicts the government's carbon-cutting efforts as more coal will be burned.

Although eight of Germany's 17 nuclear reactors have been shut down immediately and the remaining nine are to be taken offline by 2022, Flasbarth said greenhouse gas emissions will fall due to the European-wide emissions trading system. If companies burn more coal they need more emissions certificates – limiting certificates elsewhere. "There would only be a problem if energy suppliers lobby successfully against strict greenhouse gas limits after 2020, or for new subsidies for coal power plants," Flasbarth added.

Other critics of the nuclear phase-out, including Juergen Grossmann, head of energy giant RWE, have said companies would turn their backs on the country as energy prices would rise. Grossmann said: "The deindustralization won't come all at once. It will be a gradual process." Flasbarth said such fears were overblown.

Consumers will pay little for the new energy strategy, Flasbarth said. "We will have a slight increase during the next ten years in renewables while our energy infrastructure will be refurbished, but no expert has stated that prices rise more than 5%. The renewable track is economically the best one. The energy intensive industry is actually privileged, ie they pay lower energy taxes and get direct and indirect subsidies."

To fill the power gap after the nuclear phase-out, the new energy plan also includes fostering growth of green energies, moreso than any other industrialised nation. Wind turbines, biomass plants and solar panels, power storage sites and new grids are all planned.

Tennet, a private grid operator, warned in a letter to chancellor Merkel that they can not connect offshore wind turbines to the onshore grid as fast as hoped. "The warning letter to Merkel came from a company with a shortage of capital. This is a very specific situation with regard to this company, but we do not have a structural problem. We have to make big efforts, but there are enough companies ready for the task," Flasbarth said.

The German Energy Agency has calculated that 3,600km of high-voltage transmission lines will be needed by 2020. Public initiatives against "monster masts" have already been founded and have received broad media coverage. But the German public's opposition to some renewable energy developments is dwarfed by the opposition to nuclear. Thousands of demonstrators took the streets in cities across the country after Fukushima, and badges saying "Atomkraft nein danke" became popular. Flasbarth says this anger goes back to 1970 "when nuclear power was very much connected to nuclear weapons and East and Western Germany had the highest density of nuclear weapons". He added: "Those who argue that there will be a lack of public support for renewables are driven by wishful thinking."
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dimengineer
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »

Talk about the Cart before the Horse!

But Jochen Flasbarth, president of the Environmental Protection Agency in Germany, who advises the German government, said: "We are not missionaries, and every country will have to find its own way in energy policy, but it is obvious that nuclear plants are too inflexible and cannot sufficiently respond to variations in wind or solar generation, only gas [power stations] do


Its basically saying - "we know wind & solar go up & down like a yoyo" "So we'll have some really expensive gas tubine plants which we shut on and off on an almost daily basis"

Hmm... I'd really love to have to run one of those plants.... wackoold
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 03:33:39 PM »

We need some GW scale generation and I think nuclear is better and safer than coal. Renewables have a place but so does large scale generation.
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 03:40:23 PM »

I'm still flabbergasted that people put so much store in the ability of nukes to "save us all" - at best they can only ever give a tiny percentage of our needs (and are too little, too late, and far too expensive to do properly) - they are a ludicrously expensive irrelevance, and just a money wasting "blind alley", as Herr Flasbarth points out.....
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 03:51:54 PM »

Martin,

Nukes are GW scale and have a high capacity factor. Somethign thet PV can NOT do and you would need masses of wind.

We need some large thermal genration and nukes are the cleanest.

I know you'll start talking on about decommissioning and safety etc but a lot of those issues will not be present.

Construction regulations have changed since the last batch of nukes were built and they WILL be easier to decommission. There is also the new geological storage system for waste.

We NEED nukes in the short term, they are our only way of meeting GHG targets.
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 04:06:10 PM »

We don't need nukes at all - "in the short term" isn't possible - they'll be online too late to fill the yawning "energy gap" towards which we are hurtling - my prediction is that they'll be ordered by government keen to finagle them as "low carbon" (in the hope people will confuse that with renewable and sustainable) - costs will spiral (both those released and those they try to hide), there will be colossal problems, and eventually the next government will mothball them, having starved genuine renewables of the capital they so desperately need....
As for "but a lot of those issues will not be present" -  they haven't cleared up after the last 60 years or so, and I can't see them doing so, and any nuclear plant has to be built to terrifically high standards (difficult and prohibitively expensive) - even the fastidious Japanese got it wrong, so all we are doing is tearing up £50 pound notes in a wild goose chase, and neglecting the technologies that will give us a genuinely sustainable future. People have very short memories - back in around 2007, nukes were dismissed as an irrelevance following searching reports into it - the only reason it's back on the agenda is "pester power" from the lobby groups funded by "Big Nukes" who stand to make a fortune..
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 04:12:50 PM »

We don't need nukes at all - "in the short term" isn't possible - they'll be online too late to fill the yawning "energy gap" towards which we are hurtling - my prediction is that they'll be ordered by government keen to finagle them as "low carbon" (in the hope people will confuse that with renewable and sustainable) - costs will spiral (both those released and those they try to hide), there will be colossal problems, and eventually the next government will mothball them, having starved genuine renewables of the capital they so desperately need....
As for "but a lot of those issues will not be present" -  they haven't cleared up after the last 60 years or so, and I can't see them doing so, and any nuclear plant has to be built to terrifically high standards (difficult and prohibitively expensive) - even the fastidious Japanese got it wrong, so all we are doing is tearing up £50 pound notes in a wild goose chase, and neglecting the technologies that will give us a genuinely sustainable future. People have very short memories - back in around 2007, nukes were dismissed as an irrelevance following searching reports into it - the only reason it's back on the agenda is "pester power" from the lobby groups funded by "Big Nukes" who stand to make a fortune..

What would you do instead.

Working on the assumption that demand will not go down, and the public will not stand for rolling blackouts.

I WANT renewables. Part of my job is designing wind farms, BUT we have to be realistic.
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 04:21:38 PM »

Germany is going to cope...... Demand has to go down - nearly all the sums are based on "more of the same", which we should know by now is the road to hell.... Perhaps "rolling power cuts" is exactly what we need for a public cheerfully having half-hour power showers, driving overweight blobboid offspring to school, commuting long distances, and jetting off across continents several times a year because they think "they're worth it"  -we need desperately to make cuts in consumption all round, and there is little sign of any move in that direction - as I've said many times, we need a revolution in attitudes, so that wanton consumption is no longer "cool"..... I suspect that the power cuts are probably more likely if we toddle down the nuke blind alley.....
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 04:45:21 PM »

To borrow a currently overused phrase - 'Calm down dear .....'



..... I'd say that there are a lot who have already been converted on this forum, but most would probably agree that, seeing the chasm between where we are and where we would ideally like to be, the logical mindset would be thinking along the same lines as smegal ..... 

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 05:09:34 PM »

 best not to confuse "logical mindset" with "what we've been bamboozled into believing is the truth" mindset.... whistlie
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 05:28:54 PM »

I would like to think that I am more informed than most.

Bear in mind that energy is my career! And my company (which I will not name) works on pretty much all forms of energy in one way or another.
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 06:12:37 PM »

and Herr Flasbarth, who is not prejudiced by being an employee of one company with interests in the subject (and is himself head of the German environmental protection agency, who presumably has a pretty broad grasp of the subject) says the opposite..... Grin
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zeus
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 06:54:00 PM »

.... And looking at it without a prejudiced view, his background seems to be more environmental than energy centric. Obviously a career politician and always planned to be ..... education was PPE, exactly as would be the norm for the political classes in this country, probably as much an energy 'expert' as Chris Huhne in this country then  ....  hysteria

Looking elsewhere it seems that the gentleman in question is very much more associated with the 'hug a dolphin' crowd than would normally be considered to be 'without prejudice' when considering national energy policies, let alone international .... just looks like a politician setting the stage & preparing the way for a career move to Brussels .....  Wink


 
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 06:59:11 PM »

"And looking at it without a prejudiced view" is actually then followed by offering a very prejudiced view......... hysteria
" his background seems to be more environmental than energy centric" - which at the present stage of things is absolutely right and proper - energy companies have a vested interest in making money, not leaving an inhabitable planet for those that come after us (which to my mind is the truly important goal...)
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 07:15:42 PM »

I can't really see what's prejudiced in simply pointing out that remarks on energy policies are being made by a career politician without an energy background .... I'd rather rely on someone with solid educational and career background in the energy generation sector to keep my lights on than someone who has a planned political career path .... what next, Brussels and the Common Agricultural Policy ? .... no power and no food, great, and all this from an 'expert' amongst 'experts' ..... If it was up to me anyone with a PPE education would be excluded from political office tomorrow, with all future political candidates having to sit a suitability exam - we might get less bluster and more action if we had leaders who were not afraid to take decisions and actually lead ...  Wink

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