dont bank on it,,

[Quakered]

Regarding the 2008 banking crisis, this was not caused by those who created the junk bonds but rather those so stupid as to buy them. There was lots of talk in the financial press for years before about how dangerous these products were yet still some banks filled their boots and we all had to pay for this stupidity. Under Bank of England regulation perhaps it might have been avoided.

So the drugs problem is caused by the junkies and not by the drug barons...weird logic that.

But of course!The mantra is personal responsibility. I have managed to live my life without resorting to drug dealers or excessive amounts of alcohol or debt. Those who have not avoided these temptations then is is their fault, not "Society's" not the purveyors of alcohol and not the bankers.

Dave's refusal to allow Angela and Nick to get our taxpayers to help bailout the euro will soon be forgotten as today's judgement from the markets is the problem is a long way from being fixed (European markets down, euro down, French, Italian and Spanish Bonds down....)

[zeus]

Zeus

So a European report dating back to 1998 describing what a Tobin Tax would be is your evidence that it is used on a regular basis by politicians.   

Hi

Bang you head as much as you want until it hurts if you want and then access this to see how futile the exercise was ... (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/search/simple/perform.do?language=EN&collection=default_collection&sortBy=date&inArchives=true&query=tobin&submit.x=7&submit.y=11) ...   

[rt29781]

But of course!The mantra is personal responsibility. I have managed to live my life without resorting to drug dealers or excessive amounts of alcohol or debt. Those who have not avoided these temptations then is is their fault, not "Society's" not the purveyors of alcohol and not the bankers.

Hmmm, I agree that people need to take responsibility for their own decisions.  I have no debt, do not smoke or drink (alcohol) at all.  I would however hope that those trying to trap young or vulnerable people into debt or addiction would be dealt with by the law. In the case of junk bonds there was a deliberate attempt to hide the toxicity of the bonds and that action would normally be fraudulent and in fact several banks are being sued in the US for that very fact by pension funds  and the FED is now suing 17 financial institutions in the USA.
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-sue-big-banks-over-sales-risky-investments-000212787.html

There is also a professional duty of care on any institution and that clearly has been breached in the case of Junk bonds.

It helps not to be smug in these cases as you never know when such things may happen to you personally no matter how smart you think you have been.  

[M]

But of course!The mantra is personal responsibility. I have managed to live my life without resorting to drug dealers or excessive amounts of alcohol or debt. Those who have not avoided these temptations then is is their fault, not "Society's" not the purveyors of alcohol and not the bankers.

Hmmm, I agree that people need to take responsibility for their own decisions.  I have no debt, do not smoke or drink (alcohol) at all.  I would however hope that those trying to trap young or vulnerable people into debt or addiction would be dealt with by the law. In the case of junk bonds there was a deliberate attempt to hide the toxicity of the bonds and that action would normally be fraudulent and in fact several banks are being sued in the US for that very fact by pension funds  and the FED is now suing 17 financial institutions in the USA.
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-sue-big-banks-over-sales-risky-investments-000212787.html

There is also a professional duty of care on any institution and that clearly has been breached in the case of Junk bonds.

It helps not to be smug in these cases as you never know when such things may happen to you personally no matter how smart you think you have been.  

This is probably the nub of the problem, who do we blame. If we can blame someone, then we are safe and can carry on regardless.

My understanding is that the banks lent to easily, the regulators didn't spot the dangers and let them, the government(s) didn't want to spoil our partying so let it ride, and we all spent money like there was no tomorrow.

The press originally blamed the govt and the banks, but avoided attacking their customers (us). the govt slowly joined in with a go at the bankers, then everyone and their dog laid into the bankers too (whoever they actually are?).

By avoiding any self introspection we don't need to change our habits as the problems lay with those dirty bankers. Perhaps if we all took a share of the blame and accepted responsibility for intelligent savings and borrowings we could avoid this happening again.

Or to put it another way, you may as an individual have difficulty preventing a drug dealer from trading, but you don't have to participate.

Only an idea.

Mart.

[rt29781]

This is probably the nub of the problem, who do we blame. If we can blame someone, then we are safe and can carry on regardless.

My understanding is that the banks lent to easily, the regulators didn't spot the dangers and let them, the government(s) didn't want to spoil our partying so let it ride, and we all spent money like there was no tomorrow.

I am not after blame.  I want people who were responsible for the lack of "duty of care" to be punished.  The whole sub prime episode had little effect on me but it massively affected my offspring who are young adults now.  I have in the past tried to alter the behaviour of a financial institution as it made off with policyholders money and believe me it is virtually impossible in the current system.

The press originally blamed the govt and the banks, but avoided attacking their customers (us). the govt slowly joined in with a go at the bankers, then everyone and their dog laid into the bankers too (whoever they actually are?).

The press blamed the government, the regulator and the financial institutions.  The actual fault lies in the massive body of lobbyists that make sure all corporates run as they wish and repeal all the sensible laws that were put in place to stop such things happening.

By avoiding any self introspection we don't need to change our habits as the problems lay with those dirty bankers. Perhaps if we all took a share of the blame and accepted responsibility for intelligent savings and borrowings we could avoid this happening again.

Or to put it another way, you may as an individual have difficulty preventing a drug dealer from trading, but you don't have to participate.

Only an idea.

Mart.

You are correct Mart we all allowed this to happen, but at the time we were too busy trying to feed our families and we thought we had elected governments to govern, we had trusted bankers to be responsible and we had trusted regulators to regulate.  As most people that have been deceived know , trusting is sometimes not repaid.

Our system of Democracy in the USA and the UK is very broken.  As we saw with Cameron a couple of days ago his interests lie in protecting his financial institutions to the exclusion of those that export manufactured goods to Europe.

So Mart he is the key question:  What will you do personally to right this situation (other than not take part in their dirty trade)? 

I am afraid using the drug dealer analogy, not participating will not solve this issue.  We need to actual rid ourselves of the lobbyists that allow corporations to make up their rules as they go along.  That I think is what the Occupy movement has at it's heart.  That is what 38 degrees do.  That is what Unlock democracy and positive money are striving for.  I know that because I have been trying to do something.

[M]

rt29781 - What'll I do? Nothing. Not again.

3 victories via the Financial Ombudsman, with compensation payments that don't even cover the extra work involved.

Joined the campaign to help persuade Carol Vorderman not to promote 'combine your debts ...... and have a bit extra for a holiday' loans, I felt that her numerical reputation would mislead people. Was looked down on like I was an idiot.

Persuaded two work colleagues in late 2005 not to buy a house between them purely to rent out, as prices were unsustainable. They blamed me for losing thousands for 2 years, then were too embarrassed to say thanks 3 years later.

Had a falling out with a female colleague (popular aren't I) when I told her that her large credit card debt was her fault, not Barclays for putting her limit up without asking first. When I pointed out that there wasn't a gun at her head when she went shopping, she suggested putting a gun to mine - quite a funny retort now when I think about it.

Tried to get a local campaign going in early 2000's to make schools teach financial lessons (compulsory) so no kid dropped out, left to work, or went to college without understanding debt, finance, credit / debit cards, AER and APR etc. I felt that finance was too easy to fall into and children needed to be protected. Nobody was interested. However (nothing to do with me) I think there may be something on the curriculum now.

Sorry for the waffle, but I've learned that people want to spend, want credit, and don't like anybody suggesting more sensible spending and saving.

One great victory in 2004, I talked my sister and brother in law out of a discounted mortgage (3 years very cheap, rest of the term slightly dearer than normal). Found them a base rate linked deal. They now pay 1.1% (base plus 0.6% for life of mortgage), and it probably saved their house when redundancies arrived 2 years ago.

But good on you for still trying, you're the better person. I'm allowing bitterness to rule my actions, never a good thing.

Mart.

[rt29781]

rt29781 - What'll I do? Nothing. Not again.

I have been there, fought against Aviva for 3 years to stop them stealing £3b from policyholders coffers, went to FSA, FOS, many e-mails and no effect, they laughed at us.  Made a web site, contributed to a forum, we were out-gunned, the Financial Industry is ferrel I am afraid and the regulators and the Government dare not take them on, in fear of losing wealth......

I retreated to lick my wounds and think but I am better prepared and very determined to take a chunk of these jokers.  Those of us that can have to stand up against these robbers or the next generation will have nothing but debt.

Sites like 38 degrees are tackling things,  The internet is the key as it gives ordinary people a voice.  The lobbyists want us to lay down and let it happen.  The Aviva slogan that rings in my ears is " You need to do nothing".  That is not an option.......

[rt29781]

I got this today it is self explanatory, any of you want to support them?

The Independent newspaper published a slew of stories last week outlining the extent of what lobbying firm Bell Pottinger call their 'dark arts'. This extends to claiming to be able to influence government policy with a single phone call, manipulating internet search engines and having close ties with key government ministers, including David Cameron and George Osborne.
 
The government have promised to take action on this, but have repeatedly failed to publish their proposals to sort out the lobbying industry.  Instead of taking a lead, they are being bombarded by controversial revelations day after day.
 
We need the government to get a grip.  Will you write to your MP today to demand action?
 
http://action.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/lobbying-transparency-now
 
In October we asked people to write to their MPs about the need for lobbying reform following the controversy which lead to Defence Secretary Liam Fox’s resignation.  Over 2,500 of you did so.  149 MPs have now signed a motion in the House of Commons demanding a statutory register of lobbying activity and last week Labour MP Jon Cryer forced a debate in on the subject.
 
Reform of the lobbying industry and the introduction of a statutory register on lobbying activities is long overdue.  Despite this, the government has failed to stick to its revised deadline to publish a white paper on lobbying by the end of November.  Notionally the cabinet minister in charge, Nick Clegg has excluded himself from working on lobbying reform on the basis that his wife is a lobbyist, and has left it to a junior minister.  As Tamasin Cave from the Alliance of Lobbying Transparency says,”The fact that we no longer have a senior minister pushing this through is a serious cause for concern – it leaves the whole thing rudderless.”
 
Thanks in part to your efforts, it’s clear that we are winning the argument amongst MPs.  But we need to keep up the pressure to ensure the government no longer feel they can afford to let this crucial reform slip.
 
This week’s revelations by the Independent, the result of an investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, make it clear that we need reform more than ever.  At a time of austerity it is more crucial than ever that the government is seen to be serving the interests of the people and not special interests.
 
So please make sure you write to your MP today, even if you think they are unlikely to be sympathetic.  Right now it is crucial that politicians feel public pressure on this issue.
 
http://action.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/lobbying-transparency-now
 
Best wishes,
 
 
Peter Facey
Director, Unlock Democracy

[M]

OK I lied. I can't let this pass without at least trying to help a little.

Anyone who thinks children need to be taught about finance before they leave school (imagine just giving 17 year olds a driving license without any lessons) to prevent them learning the hard way, should at least have a squizz at this.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/financial-education-debate

Please join in, just edit the pro forma as required. Thanks.

Martyn.

[biff]

stories are emerging into the light concerning the treatment of the irish officials during the bailout.
  we have to addmitt that we had two innocent ejits steering the boat,cowan and lenihan. we never read anywhere in history of a similar disaster so our reps had nothing to tell them what to expect.
  a few weeks before lenihan died he gave a bbc interview in which he tried to explain how things went so horribly wrong. ireland agreed to the bailout which was pushed by the eu and the imf to stop the rot and prevent contagion or a run on the european banks.every move that was made by the eu or the imf or by our own ministers seemed to bring more pain and misery. then when it looked like things could not get any worse and the worst was being dealt with, the green party withdrew its support from the goverment and immediatly s and p downgraded us overnight costing us more billions.
  lenihan told of a meeting he had to attend in europe.he had to sit outside the room while the imf boys inside discussed what they were to do with ireland then they called him in and told him exactly what he had to do. he protested that he did not have the authority to take the steps they requested,instead he would have to put them before his goverment.one thing did become clear.this was not about saving ireland,,it was all about saving the euro. as a result of our trust in our fellow europeans to do the right thing.we became the lamb on the alter. our finances are totally wiped out and we have no hope of ever paying off our debt,strangly enough the biggest nail in our coffin was tim geithner,whose interference finished the job.
    in the years to come,you will all thank cameron for telling them to stuff it.cameron had no intention of sitting down to a game of poker with those boys or letting into look at the books.. instead he looked forward to 2019 and maybe,,just maybe things will come right,meanwhile ,what the imf boys dont know will not hurt them.how we wish we had a shiney dave who could have told the banks to bog off and the imf the same. they would be licking our ar&e now instead of shaking us by the throat.
                                                          biff
                                             

[clivejo]

I dont know if we will ever find out the true 'spark' that ignited the fire.  It just seems to be a cascade of many, many selfish and rotten decisions, with self preservation and greed at the core.  What I do know is that many in the world are living way outside their means, be that energy, grandeur, financially (which are essential the same thing in my opinion).  There is no point in writing IOU's if you realistically cant pay it back.  Here in Ireland people built huge, fancy houses (the heating costs alone must be staggering).  If you had a pulse you got a mortgage!   And because Joe Smith down the road was doing it, I should do it too!  In a way its everyone's fault, in another its no-ones!  We all what the best for our family, friends, partners etc. But there isn't enough to go around(on a global scale)

Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with the EU.  I hate the pathetic rules and bureaucracy, and damned if you do, damned if you dont attitude.  I like the way it (used to) support weaker countries grow and have an equal say within Europe so not to get bullied by the big players.  But I'm afraid this may have been an illusion.  It seems the EU leaders turned a blind eye to many warning signs such a country being kicked out of the EU for having debt over a certain percentage of GDP.  They have brought nothing new to the table, just agreeing what already had been agreed and no one followed!

I dont know what the answer is, maybe find an unlimited energy source!  But I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere will try and gain from it!

[M]

Working on the assumption that you can't fix the big issues if you ignore the little ones, then the following really bugs me every month.

Wifey and I put most expenditure on the credit card (earns us a few points each year etc etc). When the bill arrives we pay it all off, we simply can't afford to finance such debts. However, each month I read the, minimum payment bit, and the interest next month if you don't pay it all off bit.

They almost always equal each other, though some times the interest is more than the minimum payment.

How, when and why did minimum payments drop from 5% through 3% to 2%?

At 2% (approx the average monthly interest rate for a CC) you'll never clear your debt.

Now I'm not having a go at people for not paying off their bills, that's up to them, but if our regulatory bodies were really doing their jobs how could they allow minimums below 5%? Personally I'd set a minimum at 10%, but maybe that's crossing the line from sensible oversight to nanny state.

Mart.