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Author Topic: zWave Radiator Valves  (Read 2241 times)
TimSmall
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2011, 07:32:15 PM »

I would much prefer to use wires but it's a hell of a lot more difficult.

With your setup, I'd buy the German Honeywell HR20s etc. and hack them for wireless remote control.  I'm about to take the last few rads out, and ~double the floor area of the place with an extension and loft conversion, so I'll be making it all UFH at that point.

Tim.
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TimSmall
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2011, 08:05:52 PM »

What's the power-consumption of those actuators? The other solenoid or thermal-wax on-off valves I've seen use 3-5W all the time they are on, which is a problem if you got several of them that are on for long periods. That's the joy of the HR20s - no power consumption except when changing settings.

There is that, but on the other hand all the time that you are consuming the 3 to 5 watts, you're wanting heat somewhere in the building, so it's not really wasted heat, just a few watts (a few % or less) when ends up being (effectively) direct electrical heating instead of whatever your primary heat source is.

Also presumably with the thermo-mechanical units, you could make them more efficient by insulating the valve heads, and also that under PWM control they will end up using less power (making some assumptions about how they work - I'm guessing that you can chop them down to less than half power and still end up with them being 100% open most of the time at normal ambient temperatures)?

Do you happen to know if the HR20s do full proportional control, or are they on/off only?

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I guess the thermal ones will be fine - solenoid ones perhaps less so?

Yep, I'd have thought-so.  I don't think I'd try to modulate the solenoid ones...

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...which is a relatively good 2.5W.
Still if you've got 10 of these on 8 hours a day for 5 months, that's 30kWh/yr, which is currently £4.20/yr. Not terrible, but not great either.

I'm assuming that if you've got 10 of them on for 8 hours a day for 5 months, then £4.20 is probably well under 1% of your heating bills, and you've frankly got other problems!

Also the heating control algorithms I intend employing (basically those already in "DZ") will (after I've tweaked them sufficiently, and taught it how to talk to my Vaillant Ecotec Plus 24 - also courtesy of some Teutonic reverse engineering) seek to maximise boiler efficiency by fiddling with the boiler flow temp, and also try to avoid the boiler rapidly cycling - instead it'll try and either run it at its minimum continuous output (or more if necessary) - or have it turned off entirely.  In other words, each zone would "vote", and the boiler only fires (and then heats all necessary zones at once), when the vote "signal" becomes strong enough.

So I'm assuming the thermoelectric things will be cheaper, but having said that - if they end up being more expensive to control, or perhaps more importantly trickier to modulate effectively, then perhaps a manifold full of the Honeywell units will be a better bet.

Thinking about controlling the thermo-electrics, then a tenth of an amp each max, at 24v, plus some sort of temp feedback doesn't sound too pricey control-electronics wise but my analogue circuit design experience is slight...

i'm also assuming the Honeywells will physically fit side-by-side on a UFH manifold of course...

Hmm.

Tim.
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Baz
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2011, 10:52:07 PM »

Worth thinking about what happens if you have to move or die and whether it is maintainable by the average person. Hence base it on a standard  upstars dowmstairs zones & water then add your individual ideas over the top as overrides that if powered off leave the system alone.
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wookey
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 02:15:23 AM »

Tim, you're quite riht that  the 5W wastage is not really significant (eric made the same point a few days back) - it's just the total unecessary-ness of it that annoys me. It's millions of decisions like this that have produced the profligate society we live in. It wouldn't be hard to make mo-mo drives standard and thus cheap.

Anyway - moving on from that. I do know that the HR20s are proportional. They seem to have quite fine-grained control, although I haven't looked at exactly how many steps the original firmware or the open replacement provide.

I've bought a load of hollow skirting for cabling this stuff, but i haven't fitted it yet.

Running any such device on batts is a long-term pain as you have to keep replacing them. I've found that HR20s run on nicads work for about 3-6 months which is dull.

Whether they fit on a manifold is a very good question. These manifolds:  http://www.ufhtradedirect.co.uk/manifolds-c-2.html (comisa) have 50mm spacing according to suppliers. HR20s are 60mm diameter (I just measured one). That sounds like a problem. I also note that the specified electrothermal actuators are M32, so the M30 HR20s aren't going to fit.

I've been trying to find out what compatibility between manifolds, actuators and UFH pipe is, and finding that it's not great (3 diff pipe sizes for a start). But I am a newbie at this.

I picked 10 actuators in my example because mpooley said he ideally needed 21 of them, hence concern over cost of each one. Control of every zone, or even every emitter would be the ideal, but probably excessive in most cases and some amalgamation could be appropriate. I know I got it wrong in first house (did 'upstairs' and 'downstairs') when later it became clear that separate control of 'bedroom-for-sleeping' and 'bedroom-for-office' was wanted, and similarly 'bathroom' was not used like either, so that's 4 zones.

If one can set up 'per room' for sensible money then you choose how to use and control them later.

I presume the time-constant on the thermoactuators is quite long, so PWM might well keep them part-on, which would be good. They do have the advantage of being cheap, physically small enough for manifolds and having the right threads. Having to design a controller and work out the time-contants is a definite disadvantage.

Have you got DIY-zoning working? I entirely failed to get it to even build for debian arm a couple of years back when I tried (bl**dy java). Things have improved since then, I'd hope, but it's still not packaged.
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Wookey
TimSmall
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 12:34:20 PM »

Worth thinking about what happens if you have to move or die and whether it is maintainable by the average person. Hence base it on a standard upstars dowmstairs zones & water then add your individual ideas over the top as overrides that if powered off leave the system alone.

I'm planning to install a standard(ish) UFH plumbing layout (plus manifolds etc.) and an open source control system.  If someone ends up finding the controls broken and unsupportable in the future then they can always replace them, but I don't think this is any more likely to occur than with commercial off the shelf system...

I suspect that a completely off the shelf system will perform poorly in my house, as it will assume standard (i.e. a lot less than my house) levels of insulation, so the zones will end up poorly controlled, and uncomfortable.

In my current flat, the Heatmiser system works OK, but its control algorithms end up running the boiler at low efficiency (and increased wear+tear), and I still have to manually change the CH flow temp to stop it overshooting (and cooking the bedrooms at night), plus the UI (although above average) is not fantastic either - I'm the only person in the house who knows how to program it (does that count as being maintainable by the average person?  Possibly not)...

I've also got some experience of a Danish UFH controller, which was far worse (UI non-existent, inflexible algorithms that ended up cooking or freezing the occupants, and so complex to set up that an above-average electrician managed to make about 3 mistakes on the install).

I think that by using an open source system, in addition to the improved UI and control algorithms, there's also scope for features like improved diagnostics (e.g. the control system could easily send you an email or a text telling you that your boiler's acting up, or one of the zone actuators was sticking, or even that you might have left the window open), and I think it's at least plausible that a successful open source control system will develop commercial support services in the future (the same has happened many times over with other open source software).

Quite apart from anything else, if I can knock 20% off my heating bill (and domestic CO2 emissions) by adapting some existing open source software, then that's handy for me, and a fairly green thing to do.

If a few knowledgeable others do the same and further develop the system to the point that it starts gaining traction in eco-new-builds or retrofits, and then even starts displacing mainstream heating control systems, and each install knocks just a few percent off that building's CO2 emissions, then it's not long before you end up with kilotonnes of CO2 saved.

All the tech is now in place for this to occur...

Tim.
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TimSmall
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 01:37:16 PM »

Tim, you're quite riht that  the 5W wastage is not really significant (eric made the same point a few days back) - it's just the total unecessary-ness of it that annoys me. It's millions of decisions like this that have produced the profligate society we live in. It wouldn't be hard to make mo-mo drives standard and thus cheap.

I agree - it's an annoyance.  Perhaps an answer is to get the software good enough that someone starts making wireless mo-mo drives?

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I do know that the HR20s are proportional. They seem to have quite fine-grained control

OK, they may be in the running then...

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Running any such device on batts is a long-term pain as you have to keep replacing them. I've found that HR20s run on nicads work for about 3-6 months which is dull.

I wonder if you'd get longer out of a pair of NiMH (low self discharge types, or otherwise).  If I end up attaching them to a manifold, then I'll just power them from the mains...

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Whether they fit on a manifold is a very good question. These manifolds:  http://www.ufhtradedirect.co.uk/manifolds-c-2.html (comisa) have 50mm spacing according to suppliers. HR20s are 60mm diameter (I just measured one). That sounds like a problem.

Yeah, unless I can find one with a larger spacing (or perhaps I can put half on the flow manifold, and half on the return).

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the specified electrothermal actuators are M32, so the M30 HR20s aren't going to fit.

All actuators that I looked at were M30, so perhaps not.  e.g. from http://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/TSThermalActuator.aspx :

"The TS Thermal Actuator mounts directly on any underfloor heating manifold with the standard M30 x 1.5 valve connection"

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I've been trying to find out what compatibility between manifolds, actuators and UFH pipe is, and finding that it's not great (3 diff pipe sizes for a start).

I understood that the most widely used in the UK was 15mm pipe (PE-X or PB) with M30 x 1.5 actuators (or could be adapted for such)...  I was planning on using 15mm PEX.  I know it's not particularly bendy, but I have pretty low output requirements, so I'm hoping this will be OK...

My flat has ended up with four zones - one for the kitchen/lounge (which is one knocked-through room), one for each of the 2 bedrooms, and one for the bathroom.  The hallway has none, but adjoins all the other rooms so doesn't seem to need any heating, and the toilet houses the boiler which leaks sufficient heat to keep it warm.  One Heatmiser PRT in each zone.

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If one can set up 'per room' for sensible money then you choose how to use and control them later.

Yes - I think you'll knock more off your heating bill with increasingly fine-grained control, so I think putting one of the Honeywells on each Rad in a conventional system will end up saving in the long run.


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Having to design a controller and work out the time-contants is a definite disadvantage.

A bit annoying, but perhaps you could just make your software learn how to do the PWM.  As for hardware, I'd be amazed if there wasn't a suitable Arduino shield out there already...

Ok, this is the first one that I found in about 1 minute on Google - http://www.logos-electro.com/ard-srg-ips4x4-1/  but it's slight overkill at 5 amps per channel instead of 0.1 amp!

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Have you got DIY-zoning working?

I had it working on x86 back in 2003 I think.  I believe there's a bloke running it on an NSLU2 under Debian.

Tim.
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mpooley
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 04:11:40 PM »

My VB program controls 4 zones incl the Hot Water very successfully.
I can control flow/return temperatures -Pump and Boiler.
I can change the room that is acting as the 'Control' for each zone
obviously the start and stop times as per a normal programmer but also min temps overnight and during the afternoon when the timing can be set to off.
If there is an error - depending on how serious it is - I send myself an email or an SMS text.
Have not had an error in over a year now so it's pretty stable.

I am adding some some code that will make it easier to set up for someone other than the guy who wrote it (me) and that might introduce bugs - so will keep an eye on it for a while.

It would be great to expand it to control the individual rads as the upper hall collects heat from downstairs so switches off the rads in the bedrooms (so my wife moans that its cold when she goes to bed!) if she left the bedroom door open it would be more wasteful but would at least solve the problem, but she won't  banghead

The only other problem is cycling of the boiler which is why i designed this system in the first place but i just cant overcome the fact that the boiler is too big.

My trouble is I only like to program in Visual studio and so  Linux systems are out of my comfort zone (by that i mean I haven't a clue lol )

I am also getting old and my eyesight is rubbish so when i did the hardware last year I found it very difficult to see what i was doing so my preference  would be to get the hardware from someone else.

so I hope someone solves it soon so I don't have to do it  whistlie

Mike
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 05:36:15 PM »

Just an FYI ...

At my last job I was involved in the heating and a/c, so got to know "a little" (well more than perhaps I want to) about some of the stuff available. We were using Honeywell valves mostly because that's what the system designer specced initially. Anyway, some random snippets of information that may be of interest.

IIRC, most of the radiator valves worked on a 2mm stroke, while the three and four port valves we used in the heating/ac system used an 8mm stroke - that's important as it means there's more to actuator compatibility than just having the right thread.
On the 3/4 port valves we were using, there was a choice of head - we used the basic thermo-hydraulic (wax capsule) heads because we were tight (and the others would have been overkill anyway without better controls).
Or, there were actuators with a 3-wire motor open/motor close function - simple 2 winding AC motor and a capacitor, apply AC to one winding and the motor runs one way, apply it to the other winding and it motors the other way, in both cases the capacitor provides a split phase to the non-powered winding.
Or most expensive of all were self contained heads with 24V supply and 0-10V control input.

The wax capsule heads are, as already said, not a lot more than a wax capsule (the wax expands when heated) and a heating element. The spec sheet for them showed that from cold they could take 2 minutes to start opening (less if they'd only recently closed), and could take anything up to 20 mins to fully close after removing power (the longer they'd been on, the longer they took to cool). I checked with Honeywell and they said there were no restrictions on duty cycle, so it was OK to cycle them if you wanted some form of crude variable control.

Just had a quick search, and one of the first results was this which is (I think) just what we were using :
http://www.havelockcontrols.co.uk/itemdetl.php?itemprcd=50350510
The actuators have been updated since, and now have options with built in switch which we didn't have then :
http://www.havelockcontrols.co.uk/itemlist.php?findchil=1&findclas=136742
From the spec sheet, I think they have a PTC thermistor in them to reduce power (and excess heating) once they are up to temperature - the spec sheet also shows the typical opening and closing times. The prices have come down a tad as well since I was looking at them.


It was either this thread or another similar one that got me thinking - not that I'll be in a position to try it in the forseeable future. One thing I have worked out in the aforementioned previous employment is that radiators are a pig to control. When the valve opens, the rad heats up very quickly as it floods with hot water. So if you try controlling them with a stat, you tend to get very hot rads a short time after the stat kicks in, followed by a temperature overshoot, a cooling period as the rads cool off, and finally the cycle repeats.

So I was wondering if there was milage in fixing a temperature probe to the rad itself - and attempt to modulate rad temperature. In effect, have nested control loops - an outer one sensing room temp and generating a desired rad temp, an inner one acting on the desired rad temp and generating a valve control signal. The time constants of the two systems are significantly different which is part of the control problem.

Another thought I've had is related to the thermal store I've fitted in the flat. For that I've fitted a modulating pump for the CH and TRVs on all rads - doing away with the room stat. The flow temp is controlled by a TMV since the store temp at the heating tapping is both variable and often too hot. I was thinking about the practicality of sensing flow rate, and adjusting the flow temperature based on it (by replacing the TMV with a motorised head mixing valve) - it would end up as a closed loop weather/room temp/desired heat compensator. In effect, I figure that if the flow goes down, it means the demand is low and so I could drop the flow temp - so instead of having rads that are hot at one end, I could have them lukewarm most of the way across. Conversely, if the flow rate goes up, then that implies cooler rooms, and the flow temp can be turned up to suit. Unless I've missed something, that should mean better temperature control since I'd be aiming for a more or less constant TRV opening, rather than requiring a variable room temperature to trigger a variable opening.
One of the aforementioned 3 port valves, with a thermal actuator, would do the job - modulated by simple "bang-bang" on-off control to maintain the flow temp at whatever the control loop asked for.

Of course, the ultimate would be to have a circulating pump for each rad, and modulate the loop temperature according to room demands. But I doubt if most people are wanting to buy a separate pump for each rad Shocked


The only other problem is cycling of the boiler which is why i designed this system in the first place but i just cant overcome the fact that the boiler is too big.
You may want to consider a buffer tank.
Instead of driving the heating direct from the boiler - have the "boiler top" load a buffer tank, ie just have the boiler put hot water in at the top and take cool water out at the bottom. Then connect the CH using a separate pump, taking hot water from the top and returning the return flow to the bottom. The hydraulic demands of the two circuits are then decoupled - you can have enough flow to keep the boiler happy, and little enough flow to keep the heating happy - including the use of a modulating pump which really does make for a quiet system once you start throttling the flow with TRVs and stuff.
Go one step further, put a coil up inside the big tank and heat your DHW with it - then you've got a "thermal store" Wink
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2011, 06:03:56 PM »

Oh, forgot to add ...
The buffer tank would ideally have two thermostats - one near the top, one near the bottom. From cold, the boiler would run at full output until the lower stat turned it off to signal that the buffer is full. The boiler would then stay off until the upper stat stat turned on to signal that the buffer is empty. It needs one relay in addition to the two stats to get the latching action.
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mpooley
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 11:27:38 AM »

Thanks Simon
sounds like you know a lot more about this subject than I do  genuflect

I have copied that post and will keep it for future reference. In other words I'll have to read it quite a few times to begin to understand it lol

Regarding the Buffer tank, I will have to try to draw a diagram to understand what you mean. I think i get it but am not sure yet.

One thing i am interested in regarding Boiler cycling is how much efficiency is lost from a boiler when it cycles. Therefore how much does it cost me per year as the cost of a buffer tank, pumps etc would be a fair bit.

I am still very interested in fitting a GSHP next year so certainly wont be adding a buffer tank till after that decision is made but it's very interesting as there is a debate whether a buffer tank is needed with GSHP as well.

again thanks !

Mike

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SimonHobson
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2012, 01:48:32 PM »

sounds like you know a lot more about this subject than I do  genuflect
I don't know a lot - just bits and bobs I picked up along the way.
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Regarding the Buffer tank, I will have to try to draw a diagram to understand what you mean. I think i get it but am not sure yet.
I did a thread on installing my thermal store, there's a schematic part way down the first page. If you ignore all the DHW stuff, then simply imagine the cylinder filled with hot and cold water that separate at a boundary layer (hot at the top, cold at the bottom). As the boiler runs, the boundary moves down, as the heating runs, the boundary moves up. So you get to run the boiler for as long as it takes to "recharge' the store and then it shuts down completely.
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One thing i am interested in regarding Boiler cycling is how much efficiency is lost from a boiler when it cycles. Therefore how much does it cost me per year as the cost of a buffer tank, pumps etc would be a fair bit.
I suspect for a modern gas fired boiler it's not too bad, but for an oil fired boiler you also have the consideration of fouling - if it never runs for long hard burns then it tends to foul up inside. I recall that at our last house we had an oil fired boiler - and the service guys used to remark on how clean it was inside. This was because (contrary to common practice at the time) we had both a room stat and a cylinder stat on the system, so it spent a lot less time short-cycling - it was built in 1969 and we lived in it from new.

The secondary issue is that traditionally, in order to get the boiler happy (min flow through boiler is higher than desired flow through CH), you have to have a bypass on the CH loop - this means you short circuit hot water back to the boiler and raise it's inlet temperature. For a gas boiler, I believe the optimum is "below 54˚C" to make it condense - but if you feed hot water back, then you may well raise the return temperature above this most of the time.
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I am still very interested in fitting a GSHP next year so certainly wont be adding a buffer tank till after that decision is made but it's very interesting as there is a debate whether a buffer tank is needed with GSHP as well.
Ahh, lots of variables there. At least with GS you don't have the issues you get with AS - namely that when you most need the heating, the COP drops off considerably because the outside air temperature is low. The biggest question might be, do you get cheap rate lecky at any time - because if you do then it makes sense to use the heat pump when the lecky is cheap. Unless you are nocturnal, then that ideally means storing the heat - for storage you want a considerably bigger tank than if it's just for buffering.

You can also start getting into significantly more complicated setups - tap off low down for UFH, higher up for radiators, heat the top with a boiler, the bottom with the HP, and so on. My store, for example, is designed with solar input - so the nominated boiler return tapping is about half way up, allowing the solar to be the sole heating for the lower cylinder, and the boiler to just top-up the upper section for DHW when solar isn't enough. As I've not got solar, I've taken the boiler return from the bottom for now.
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