New PV'er in desperate need of some help.

[M]

Found a stray PV'er desperate for some help regarding a new system, and faults.

I promised him that the experts on this forum would be able to offer support and advice.

I found him lost and lonely on the MSE forum. He's having trouble getting his registration complete so, if it's ok, I'm cutting and pasting the details for him. he should be along shortly.

Sorry 1st time poster (regular newsletter reader though) have had some panels fitted to our house plus my cousin got his done too & my friend. I recommended them all to the same company & negotiated a price to get the work done together to keep costs down for all of us. We are based in Slough (yes that neck of the woods) in berkshire (SE region)

We were promised SMA inverters, Luxor 250w panels what we were fitted were 245w Suntech's & either Kaco or SMA inverters. Install completion was just before the 11th dec 2011 deadline

Panels fitted & locations etc...

Hse 1: Split roof. Kaco inverter. 10 panels South 6 panels west
Hse 2: SMA inverter. 9 panels South
Hse 3: SMA inverter. 7 panels west

Hse 1 is averaging about 1kwh a day at the moment (current reading 34.38kwh)
Hse 2 is averaging about 1khw a day at the moment (current reading 5.69kwh only switched on 22/12/11 - as the solar power company switched off after install as hadn't paid all monies yet)
Hse 3 is averaging less than 0.5khw a day at the moment (current reading 1.9kwh only switched on 22/12/11 - as the solar power company switched off after install as hadn't paid all monies yet)

The solar power company are saying this is normal and in-fact we're generating WAY more than we should be at this time of year these figures will quadruple if not more over spring/summer and we should all be getting the 1000's of KWH's we were promised.

Hse 1 - they stated we should be getting 5kwh based upon the numbers generated so-far
Hse 2 - again they feel should be getting over 3kwh
Hse 3 - they feel should be over 1.5kwh each year

What i'd like to know is this normal getting 1 kwh per day over this period. And is it even feasible we will get what we were all promised in terms of numbers. Also what recourse do we have after paying them the final installment

Sorry to throw this out there but i don't know where else to turn. I need some guidance & help as i feel that the company we've used has cost us all a lot of money & we won't even be able to pay back our loans with the monies we'd all be getting via the FIT's.

Final payment must be made this week so if anyone has any advice please please let me know, thanks again for you time!

AND

Just some more facts about the cowboy outfit we'd all used:

Apart from the fact they didn't install the panels/inverters as promised they:

Messed up the mcs certs by swapping all our meter s/n's (so the wrong s/n's were on the mcs certs) we're now all being hounded by our energy providers requesting why the meter s/n's we'd provided aren't agreeing with the actual mcs cert
The mcs certs showing the original panels but not the actual one's fitted

My other concern was that Hse no 2 with only 9 panels S is generating as much if not more than Hse no 1 with 10 panels S & 6 panels W - is this even possible. Even though we're a stones throw away from 1 another with NO shadow on either property?

AND

They promised us that a dual feed inverter (ie 1 from the S & 1 from the W) would be better than single feed. They therefore recommended the SMA as that is dual-feed. But then they put in a Kaco instead - which i can't tell is dual feed or not. But going by the readings we're getting compared to my friends i seem to be on a par with them with more panels.

Is there any re-course for me? can i go back to Real or MCS or even the c/c company I'd used? Just feel very angry about all of this, due to the gov't reducing the deadline I was forced into making a snap decision, now it seems it was the worst thing to do

He'll probably have the name TAZ or similar.

Thanks guys and gals.

Martyn.

[GavinA]

as far as I know Kaco don't make dual MPPT inverters, but I'd need to know the precise model to be sure. Obviously that system needs a dual MPPT inverter to operate anywhere near effectively, so they'd need to get the company to return to correct their mistake (probably caused by shortages of 4000TL inverters), with either an SMA sunnyboy 4000TL or Aurora 3.6Out-D or 3600.

They should also reduce the price by around 2% for the reduced rating of the panels and issue corrected MCS certificates prior to handing over the final fee.

re recourse - there is, but you have to give the company a chance to correct it's mistakes first.

[M]

Thanks Gavin, I told him if he was lucky, that you Bruce or similar would be along to help.

here's another post of his, he's still trying to complete registration.

the inverter i have is the Kaco Powador 4202

Just been on another site & it states its 3500W max'm output 4.2kW
Number of strings / MPP controller 3
Number of MPP controllers 1 [does this mean its single feed?]

The system i have is 4kw (ie 16 panels) but the site states it can do:

Rated output 3.5 kW Max. output 3.5 kW
Again does that mean i will lose 500kw?

For Hse 2 & 3 i think they fitted Sunny Boy SB2100TL's for 9 panels & 7 panels.

Thanks again everyone, Doing my best for inter forum relations.

Mart.

[GavinA]

sorry, they've fitted 2 x Sunnyboy 2100TL?

unless they've certificated them and not altered their website, they don't have G83 settings, and aren't licensed for use in the UK as far as I know. Certainly they don't list a G83 certificate on the SMA website, or G83 in the list of certificates on the datasheet.

Kaco powador 4202 does not have dual MPPT, and categorically is not suitable for use with 2 arrays facing in different directions.

to answer another question, 4kWp of panels split across 2 roofs will pretty much never produce over 3.5kW AC anyway as the sun will never be full on to both arrays at once, plus inverter losses etc, so that's not really an issue worth worrying about.

[M]

Gavin, you're a star.

This is not looking good so far then.

I've lost him at the moment but will pass on your comments. Hopefully tomorrow he'll be live on the system.

Mart.

[theonlytazman]

Thanks M for helping me out with this. Yes its me who is currently having this problem. The Sunny Boy 2100TL's were fitted in my cousins & friends houses. Thought it'd be cheaper to get it all done in 1 go. My one has the Kaco which like M's so kindly noted down for me above is giving less than the 9 panels

I've sent them an email early morning requesting proof/confirmation of the G83 status for the SB2100TL's - what i'm worried about is that the fit forms had been completed with them on does that then mean the fit payments won't be payable any longer or at a reduced rate as a new claim will need to be done?

A total of 65% of the final fee has been paid up so-far for all 3 premises. Yet they're requesting a further 15% at least to get the bluetooth remotes setup on hse's 2 & 3. Plus give the paperwork (ie warranty info, details of exactly what was fitted as none to spec of quote ...), adjusted MCS certs showing correct meters for correct addresses (NO correction done of the incorrect panels shown on the mcs certs though!) ...

What's still left to complete would be: swap out of the Kaco inverter for the SMA inverter and bluetooth remote for that also

BUT if they then request final payment my concerns would be:

MCS certs would still have incorrect panels shown - would this cause us probs in future?
SB2100TL's fitted - will this cause a problem with fit's?
The new Sunny Boy to be fitted to my house (swap out with kaco) how would i know if they've fitted it in right or its all done properly - as i won't have time to test it
How do i know if any of this setup has been done properly?

Again help you guys can give would be most humbly appreciated as I'm getting too stressed over all of this as too much money seems to have gone down the drain (or seems to be)

If needed i can give readings from the kaco & sma's later today (hopefully). ie voltages, wattages, temp's etc...

[M]

Welcome Taz, now over to the guys who actually know what they're talking about. Told you i was a mere beginner.

Don't stress.

Mart.

[GavinA]

hi taz,

don't stress too much, here's how I'd approach it.

1 - Check yourself if the 2100TLs are set to G83 settings. Easily done by simply switching them off at both AC and DC isolators, leave for a minute or so, switch back on at both isolators while carefully watching the display. At some point in the start up process it should display the magic phrase 'G83/1/1' or even just 'G83/1' or anything with G83 in it if it is set to G83. If it doesn't, then it's almost certainly not.

2 - If the 2100TLs are G83 compliant, then no problem (and remove point 2 below), if not then I'd email them with the following list of works that are needed to make your systems comply with all the regulations, and meet your expectations as agreed in the contract (verbal agreements count as well).


An email along these lines should sort this out (bear in mind they're in breach of contract, so can't force you to hand over further payments until they're not breaching the contract)

Dear xxx

I have taken independent professional advice regarding the 3 solar PV systems your company installed for my family, and have been advised that there seem to be serious problems with the equipment installed for all 3 systems, as well as the paperwork that accompanied them. In light of this, I require the following works to be corrected / completed at your expense before further payments can be made on any of these contracts.


1 - Replace the Kaco inverter with a dual MPPT inverter capable of handling both strings separately, as well as having a remote display option - suggestions would be Sunnyboy 4000TL + sunnybeam or Aurora 3600 / 3.6 out-D + radio transmitter and display. Ensure that the new system is wired correctly in 2 strings, one for each roof face, with the strings split between A & B inputs.

2 - Explain how the 2100TL's have been made G83 compliant, and produce G83/1/1 test certificate for them, or replace Sunny Boy 2100TL with G83/1/1 compliant SMA Sunny Boy inverters of equivalent quality eg 2000HF (only if they're not G83 compliant).

3 - Alter MCS certificates for all 3 systems to show the correct make and model of panels, and meter numbers, and supply these revised documents to you.

4 - Supply you with copies of Appendix 3 notification, and electrical certificates for all 3 properties along with the MCS certificate and warranty documents.

5 - Reduce the final price of the system by 2% to reflect the reduced capacity of the arrays from the lower rated panels, and reissue the invoices for this new amount once all the above works are complete.


We would prefer it if all systems were corrected at the same time, but should cashflow be a problem, we would be prepared to accept each system being corrected separately, with full payment for each corrected system being made once all corrections are completed for that system, providing that work on all 3 systems is completed before the end of January 2012.

[labrador]

Hi Taz,

Re Outputs

If you follow this link http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=5650&sid=4502 (If the full link doesnt work go to pvoutput.org and click on PV ladder tab and then click Location header and then look for the SL1 postcode  name is Griffin)
 
It shows you the daily output from a south facing 4kw system in Slough  - I am down the road and have found my readings are slightly different  - local weather and poss some shading issues early am and pm - so thought this would be of more help. Unfortunately the readings are not fully upto date but should be enough to give you some comparison.

Also for the past few days it has been very cloudy so my generation has been low, less than 1kwp on some days.

Good luck sorting out the technical side.

[supremetwo]

Re Outputs
If you follow this link http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=5650&sid=4502 (If the full link doesnt work go to pvoutput.org and click on PV ladder tab and then click Location header and then look for the SL1 postcode  name is Griffin)

How do you get the readings and is your kWh monitoring actually accurate to 3 decimal places?

[NugentS]

Hi Taz,

Re Outputs

If you follow this link http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=5650&sid=4502 (If the full link doesnt work go to pvoutput.org and click on PV ladder tab and then click Location header and then look for the SL1 postcode  name is Griffin)
 
It shows you the daily output from a south facing 4kw system in Slough  - I am down the road and have found my readings are slightly different  - local weather and poss some shading issues early am and pm - so thought this would be of more help. Unfortunately the readings are not fully upto date but should be enough to give you some comparison.

Also for the past few days it has been very cloudy so my generation has been low, less than 1kwp on some days.

Good luck sorting out the technical side.

 

That would be me!!
Anything I can do to help? - Just off to read the rest of the thread

Regards

Sean

[NugentS]

Re Outputs
If you follow this link http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=5650&sid=4502 (If the full link doesnt work go to pvoutput.org and click on PV ladder tab and then click Location header and then look for the SL1 postcode  name is Griffin)

How do you get the readings and is your kWh monitoring actually accurate to 3 decimal places?

Thats what the inverter says

Sean

[labrador]

Just to clarify for everyone the figs for generation I provided in the link from PV output are not from my site which is about 10 miles away  - I provided the ref as it is more local to Taz - hence felt was more relevant. I have been using Griffins data to measure against my own data - My installation was in Mid Nov and the data from this will be added to BDPV site ( And PV output) hopefully this weekend when I have a full month to show.

Just seen your reply Sean - a different meter to most of us then!

(Supreme two have PM'd you as well)

[theonlytazman]

Thanks guys for the help/advice. Did get back to the installers yesterday with "GavinA"'s comments. 1 of them said the G83 is not necessary in towns/cities mainly relevant for the countryside. he said he didn't know the specifics of the systems his boss did but would come back to me next week.

With the 2 SMA's will have to cut/paste your comments then email it over to the other 2 hse's (by isolators i presume you mean the big switches next to the inverter?)

The 2% reduction in price, they won't do. i've tried it with them before asking for a drop in price due to wrong specs provided & lower wattages. they wouldn't budge - have i got any recourse on that one with anyone?

The griffin summary - my readings are nowhere near those levels. Partly probably due to the wrong inverter, partly to do with having a south roof & west facing roof, partly to do with some shoddy workmanship???

Happy new year to everyone & thanks again for trying to put me @ rest but the way i feel at the moment i'd rather shoot them, thank god i haven't paid them in full yet!

[BruceB]

Do not be fobbed off on the G83 point.  Your system will almost certainly be required to connect under standard G83/1 Stage 1 arrangements (town or country is irrelevant) which means that when your installer notifies the DNO of your system being commissioned then the installer must include a copy of the appropriate G83 certification for the inverter.  That was a sound list of points Gavin gave you.  Do not forget your leverage is your money so do not part with it until satisfied.
Regards
Bruce