Hydro turbine generator without water flow.

[DaS Energy]

    posted Today 10:25:57 PM
   
Unusual means to drive a hydro turbine where no flow water exits.
My first accomplishment was to pump raise water to storage and flow back, next was to connect the hydro turbine direct to the pump. The pump itself is entirely my own design and uses gas pressure to force the water. The gas I use is Carbon-C02. However other more active gasses may be used though to date CO2 is the only one I have been able to get specific graph on as heat to pressure. But first of all back to the hydro turbine/generator. A one litre 9 bar per second 82% efficient (common) rotating at 60 RPM produces 720 watts. This increases by pressure, volume or rotation. Next the pump, this being the DaS Valve also fully developed by myself. It works on the principal that gas shall rise to the surface in liquid. A heat expanding gas pocket above water creates a water pressure exact to that of the gas pressure. This gas pressure is whats used to drive the water from the pump. The minimum 9 bar pressure requirement is reached at minus 10* Celsius, the same gas at plus 100* Celsius produces 10,000 pressure. The pump being fully sealed is 100% recycle. The complete device is constructed by cut and weld of pipe. Care should be taken in pipe strength to make sure it can handle the pressure requirements. I used line pipe for 10,000 bar pressure (720 kilowatts). The three attachments are complete engineerings of the DaS Valve, the ambient heat Hydro Turbine generator and the CO2 pressure to heat graph. Most happy to help further.

Cheers Peter
 

[Mankysteve]

I'll have some of what ever he's smoking.

[ecogeorge]

I'm always suspicious of any generating system that does not contain mirrors.

[clivejo]

Interesting, very interesting

[biff]

g,aaawwwwwwwwdddddd,
  der wuz me about to apply for a shares certificate,had my euros ready and then someone mentioned mirrors,,,wow,!
   fantastic idea,unbelievable really,i wuz gonna stick my one on the rear end of a cow and go gas direct or direct injection,
                                                                                                    biff

[DaS Energy]

Hello Mankysteve,

Thought it was legal in California.  Helps with the pain when physics demonstrate the inadaquacies of metal casings. Such as when the squash ball used as exhaust valve becomes jammed in exhaust hole and your standing there tapping with a stick.  If you can cut and weld pipe or in fact buy threaded pipe all except the turbine is made, though this then is only a possitive action pump with no moving part. Any gas including air can be used in place of CO2. Puts Stirling in the shed and leaves Solar in the dark. CO2 minimum temperature at full activation is minus 10* Celsius.

[DaS Energy]

Hello clivejo,

Methane has lower volitility than CO2 so more heat is needed. Though constant warmth of the cow does stop pressure fluctuation. Also CO2 has the odd quality of being the Refrigerant R744 so imeadiatley after escape through exhaust its cold agan. 

[DaS Energy]

Hello clivejo,

Sorry last post was meant for Biff, being old has let roo's into the top paddock.

Cheers Peter

[DaS Energy]

Hello clivejo,

Thank you. Pensioner funded.  It was ten years in the making. No professional expertise, just make and see. Two explosions, and one melt down when first attempted to use Ammonia, theres no instruction on the bottle as to the limitation of metals it wont eat out. Both possitive action pump and Mitchell turbine are made using cut and weld of pipe.  Power output is that charted by California University using a common 82% efficient turbine in place of Mitchell 60% efficiency. Complete device has been posted Open Technology.  Low pressure water pump is made by pvc piping and valve seating is pvc reducer.

Cheers Peter

[Jeremy]

If I'm interpreting the diagram and operating principle correctly, this looks like a heat engine using a phase change working fluid in a closed cycle.  The "turbine" is simply the means to extract energy (inefficiently I would have thought)  from the moving working fluid as it passes through the right hand duct.

How close does it get to operating at the Carnot limit?

Is it more efficient than other heat engines, and if so, how was that efficiency measured?  For example, a modern direct injection turbo diesel is around 40% efficient, a good Stirling engine is around the same as a spark ignition internal combustion engine, at around 30%.  The Carnot limit for an external combustion phase change heat engine of this type would seem to around 50 to 60% at best, so the quoted figure of 82% in the first post is either an error or applies only to a single component within the heat engine, not the whole heat engine efficiency.

One thing that seems to be missing from the diagram is the means of cooling.  There has to be one to condense the working fluid from the gaseous to liquid phase for re-use in the closed-cycle, assuming I've grasped the working principle correctly.

It's a very old basic idea, in principle similar in outline to an absorption heat pump (as used on gas fridges), but with a means of extracting some energy from the movement of the working fluid.  The working principle seems to be the same as for a Stirling engine, albeit with the removal of the positive displacement power abstraction system and replacement with a turbine, plus the substitution of a phase change working fluid (although that has been done with Stirling engines too, with mixed results).

The major downside is the relatively poor overall thermal efficiency, something that all external combustion heat engines struggle with.  If used in a CHP type system, where waste heat recovery could get total efficiency up a bit it might be a bit better, but it will always be hampered by the need to cool the condensing side of the system, which would mean that the return from any heat recovery system would have to be at a low temperature, something that would limit its practical use.

[DaS Energy]

Hello Jeremy,
To answer your post one item at a time. It could be taken as a heat engine when a liquid change takes place as as when using CO2 only. However this cannot be said when the system using two mediums such as water and gas. In water and gas working there is no phase change in the water, only the gas heats at expansion providing force upon the water underneath it. Correct the purpose of the turbine exploit the energy forces of the moving water, not sure about being ineffient though as hydro turbine are the most efficient of all turbine, begining with the Mitchell 60% effient onto a raft of turbine design 82% effieint.
Carnot is energy loss to heat loss. (closest to defeating Carnot is the electric motor) The heat Loss we have not yet measured. No heat engine in the world comes remotely close. The efficiency measure was calculated by the force first commencing in the pump against the loss of force at arrival at turbine. This being zero, however scientific instrument would pick up a loss of energy cause by friction loss as the liquid travells through the tubing. with the exception of the home made Mitchell turbine 60% efficient all others now begin at 82% efficiency, example Francis, Pelton, Turgo. Cooling, if you look closely at the posted working you will see spray cooling using water (which is the worlds most efficient means of cooling with water) as it exits the turbine, though only applies to liquid and gas opperation as opposed to liquid only.  Liquid only CO2 also known as Refrigerant R774 acts just like in compressor or absorption fridge, the gas exhaust acting the same as fridge restrictor. More to come for some reason wont let print continue in this space. Please see following pst.




 

[Jeremy]

Well, surely it HAS to be a heat engine because the fundamental source of energy that it is using to do useful work is derived from a temperature differential, isn't it?

If not, where is the energy coming from that the machine is exploiting to do useful work?

The means by which that heat is derived and that for the other energy-consuming aspects of the machine (like the energy to drive the water spray cooling, overcome viscous drag in the working fluid, frictional drag in the turbine bearings etc) have to be accounted for when determining total efficiency.

[DaS Energy]

Hello Jeremy,

Yes I have to agree that in the post it is a heat engine, though we don't recognise it as purely such given lath work to the hydro turbine shaft turns the whole apparatus into a combustion engine ignited by compression. As for the viscous drag in spray cooling this is extremely low given the whole system is closed loop and the gas pressure after exiting the tubes remains applying force until the old heat gas has been lowered to such heat it no longer on its own can supply the pressure needed for spray cooling. However this does not apply when liquid alone is used. As for shaft bearing and seals on the turbine these are taken into account by manufacturers when establishing the efficiency of the their hydro turbines.

Cheers Peter

[Jeremy]

What's the differential operating temperature between the hot and cold sides of the engine?

That will help determine the theoretical efficiency limit for the basic heat engine (which will be somewhere around 50 to 60% I believe) and then the total machine efficiency can be estimated from that (I would guess that it may be somewhere between 20% and 35% overall thermal efficiency, without using heat recovery for another useful purpose).

The impeller/turbine efficiency will only play a small part in the machine efficiency, as the major influence will be the ratio of fuel expended to generate the required heat vs the amount of mechanical or electrical energy that can be delivered in a given period of time.  For example, a good turbine might run at 80% efficiency (in terms of working fluid kinetic energy to mechanical output kinetic energy).  A good electrical alternator may run at around 90% efficiency, in terms of mechanical kinetic energy input to electrical energy output.  The combined efficiency of the two might be around 72%.

What we also need to know, though, is the energy expended to provide the working fluid with the kinetic energy that the turbine uses to do useful work.  If, for example, it was a near-perfect heat engine, then it might be able to convert about 60% or so of the potential energy in the fuel driving the heat source to kinetic energy in the working fluid.  So the total efficiency of a machine that consisted of a near-perfect heat engine and an alternator might be somewhere around 43%.  If there was a way to use the low level waste heat from the cooling side of the cycle for another useful purpose (space heating, perhaps) then the total efficiency could approach around 60%.

[DaS Energy]

Hello Jeremy,

Differential in operating temperature is entirely dependant on the force one wishes to send to the turbine. The force being that force existing betwen the two heat marks.

I thank you for your advice however we rely upon American NASA, California University, Oaklahoma University, Queensland University, Industrialists and Chemistrary Professors.

California University rates the Francis turbine/generater at 82% efficiency so we rely upon them in this matter.

As to using fuel in place of ambient temperature to provide heat, any medium shall only uptake half the initial heat source leaving both at equal temperature.

Thank you again for your advice to the working of things and efficiencies of such however we remain reliant upon those as stated in earlier paragraph.

Cheers Peter