navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
UK's most popular Renewable Energy Forum May 25, 2012, 02:03:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: UPDATE ON DECC APPLICATION FOR LEAVE TO APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT | Yingli Green Energy's PV Module Ranks No.2 in TUV Rheinland Energy Yield Test | Navitron Solar Showers at Glastonbury for Year 5!
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The wind turbines that can’t cope… with the WIND!  (Read 2398 times)
brackwell
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 735


« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2012, 10:14:20 AM »

John,
Tosh does not come into it -its a question of scale.
The one thing that probably units this forum is the believe in more storage. As for " the techniques had been developed to solve the problem." well that happened long ago and are available now. Unfortunately there is the question of money as always.

1) Firstly there is the scale.  We all type GW thinking we know what it is but i would suggest it is beyond most peoples comprehension. Perhaps if we called it 1,000,000,000 watts it would help!

2) Standby/reserve capacity is just that. So we are wanting someone to build storage which may never/hardly be used.  Form an orderly queue here !

Unless people are prepared to pay more we are largely stuck with burning stuff and substituting renewables when they are gratefully available. If however if one rigs the market by banning dirty coal,limiting/banning nuclear, NIMBYS wind turbines and power lines etc.  Perhaps thats the answer less democracy.

Ken
Logged
dhaslam
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4561



« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2012, 10:16:44 AM »

The simple  way to store heat from a solar source is to have large scale seasonal heat store.   Once the volume is large enough the heat loss on the boundaries  becomes insignificant.      It isn't so cost effective for single houses but for  a village  it would be very easy to do.    Once set up it could use other heat inputs as well as solar.    

Using methane  for storage is very interesting, particularly since it can be chanelled through the gas system  for cooking etc and can replace petrol and diesel for vehicles.    There still needs to be improvement in the the efficiency of extracting hydrogen from water.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_splitting
Logged
smegal
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2012, 10:37:53 AM »

The simple  way to store heat from a solar source is to have large scale seasonal heat store.   Once the volume is large enough the heat loss on the boundaries  becomes insignificant.      It isn't so cost effective for single houses but for  a village  it would be very easy to do.    Once set up it could use other heat inputs as well as solar.    

Using methane  for storage is very interesting, particularly since it can be chanelled through the gas system  for cooking etc and can replace petrol and diesel for vehicles.    There still needs to be improvement in the the efficiency of extracting hydrogen from water.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_splitting

The Sabatier reaction is still EXTREMELY inefficient, especially if you tried to get electricity out. It does have its uses though. I would rather see "spilled" energy go to this than to be used in other ways. That is about as far as it goes.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes regrading energy storage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction
Logged

"Hell, there are no rules here, we are trying to accomplish something." Thomas Edison
stannn
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 305


« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2012, 10:40:49 AM »

Quote from dhaslam
'The simple  way to store heat from a solar source is to have large scale seasonal heat store.   Once the volume is large enough the heat loss on the boundaries  becomes insignificant.      It isn't so cost effective for single houses but for  a village  it would be very easy to do.    Once set up it could use other heat inputs as well as solar.'

That's an interesting paragraph. At what size/shape does heat loss become insignificant?
Stan
Logged
martin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11438



WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2012, 10:53:13 AM »

The big thing that keeps getting forgotten when people squawk about "storage" (which IS mightily important) is to be influenced by the fact that for many decades we've had "on demand" energy on tap, and a lot of the basics are being forgotten - yes, many renewable energy sources are intermittent, so are a lot of our needs - clothes washing is done periodically, as is washing up, boiling kettles, bathing/showering, and hoovering the house......... industrially, many processes are done as a "batch" (or could be done as "batches"), so I think that there is an enormous untapped potential in "marrying up" the two by use of "smart technology", and simple old-fashioned desire to keep costs down (my idea of allowing a discount if you use your energy when it's plentiful could work well - on the end of every weather forecast they could add "owing to the predicted good winds over the country today, it's a "low tariff day" for washing machines etc...... and so on....)
Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1847



« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2012, 11:03:16 AM »

Ken

I realise people have difficulty in equating power on the GW level but when you have the German government quoting 2 months energy supply contained in there gas pipeline infrastructure peaks and troughs on a daily basis are irrelevant. In certain respects we are in a better position in the UK as a large proportion of generating capacity is provided by gas and a ridiculous amount of additional gas generation is in planning or has recently been approved to coincide with the fracking reserves which will come on stream shortly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/dec/04/renewableenergy-energy-industry?newsfeed=true

Even 14 days supply makes daily peaks and troughs irrelevant although it would be far better to be in the position of France or Germany.  Certainly even the existing capacity would allow for any over capacity of wind to be turned into methane injection into the existing infrastructure reducing the need for Russian supplies.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/084d21fc-50fa-11e0-8931-00144feab49a.html#axzz1j9EPDhdS
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 11:35:25 AM by renewablejohn » Logged
A.L.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2012, 11:53:08 AM »

hello,

Quote from dhaslam
'The simple  way to store heat from a solar source is to have large scale seasonal heat store.   Once the volume is large enough the heat loss on the boundaries  becomes insignificant.      It isn't so cost effective for single houses but for  a village  it would be very easy to do.    Once set up it could use other heat inputs as well as solar.'

That's an interesting paragraph. At what size/shape does heat loss become insignificant?
Stan

not an exact answer, but how about a 35m on a side cube? - www.dlsc.ca/index.htm
Logged
dhaslam
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4561



« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2012, 11:59:09 AM »

Quote from dhaslam
'The simple  way to store heat from a solar source is to have large scale seasonal heat store.   Once the volume is large enough the heat loss on the boundaries  becomes insignificant.      It isn't so cost effective for single houses but for  a village  it would be very easy to do.    Once set up it could use other heat inputs as well as solar.'

That's an interesting paragraph. At what size/shape does heat loss become insignificant?
Stan

Storage  for 100 houses would lose about five times less  and 1000 houses ten times less for a given thickness of insulation.      It would be  reasonably  easy to  make the storage area  under an open space in a  new development.    

The eco village close to  here, in Cloughjordan,  went  part of the way in  having communal solar panels and  overground storage tanks but they have to use  wood chip boilers in winter.  

http://www.origen.ie/#

Logged
dhaslam
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4561



« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2012, 12:41:05 PM »


not an exact answer, but how about a 35m on a side cube? - www.dlsc.ca/index.htm

The Canadian one is interesting but  it seems to be located in an area that has stable  underground conditions  and doesn't lose it's heat  to moving ground water.   

Most sites in the British Isles  would  always have moist soil  so would need walls  to keep water out and  since the walls have to be waterproof  water can be used for storage as well.   
Logged
SimonHobson
Guest
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2012, 01:00:34 PM »

Using methane  for storage is very interesting, particularly since it can be chanelled through the gas system  for cooking etc and can replace petrol and diesel for vehicles.
The Sabatier reaction is still EXTREMELY inefficient, especially if you tried to get electricity out. It does have its uses though. I would rather see "spilled" energy go to this than to be used in other ways. That is about as far as it goes.
It seems to me that marrying intermittent generation sources to such conversions would be a good use - IF elimination of CO2 emissions is the aim. At present, there is effectively an upper limit on the amount of wind which is governed by the need to transport the lecky to the users AND to maintain grid stability under all conditions (especially under minimum load). I think there is an argument (which I know some people will automatically dismiss, but I'm going to throw it in the discussion) for adding large quantities of nukes a well as wind and large quantities of electrical load making "fuels" (methane, methanol, whatever).
If you get to enough capacity to eliminate FF burning, then it's not really "waste" to use excess wind/PV/whatever to create other fuels that can displace FF elsewhere.
If the wind isn't blowing, you scale back fuel production to suit, if it is blowing, then you ramp it up. In the meantime, as long as you have enough fuel production facilities, you can keep the base load up and avoid having to "turn down" either source at night.

You could make the argument for doing that without nukes, if you can get enough renewables to have an excess most of the time. That's another debate that's been done to death before - where some thing it will be trivial to do, others believe it's not practical (at least for the UK as an island).

But once again, money would be a big factor - I doubt that any of this would come cheap.
The big thing that keeps getting forgotten when people squawk about "storage" (which IS mightily important) is to be influenced by the fact that for many decades we've had "on demand" energy on tap, and a lot of the basics are being forgotten ...
Yes you do keep saying it - when others are less repetitive supporting their opinions you call them trolls Wink

To a certain extent change is possible. A small amount of change will be "fairly easy", but what are needed are really huge changes. These will not be easy, cheap, or quick.

While some things do lend themselves to load deferment - immersion heaters in DHW cylinders would be a good example. If you have a large enough cylinder, it could be heated at times of minimum demand which is what the old Economy 7 tariff was about. If you also have a roof, then it can also be heated by solar when it's available.

Some things don't lend themselves so easily. Most people have a fairly set daily routine - they get up in time to have breakfast before going to work, they get home form work, have tea, and then have the evening to do other things before going to bed. Like it or not, the business world still works round a fairly fixed core time - there is a certain amount of flexibility for many, but still core time for most. So meal times are somewhat constrained, and of course if you are going to have a cup of tea then that means boiling the kettle at the time.
So part of the day is set by outside influences. Human bodies really don't cope well without a routine - so you can rule out hoovering at 2am for the majority. You might be able to do some of the washing at 2am if you are lucky enough to be able to sleep while the washer is running, and of course if you don't mind a pile of creased up washing to deal with in the morning. Mind you, for the washing you would do better to combine hot water storage (as above) with washers doing "hot fill", something that manufacturers have been busy programming out (or removing altogether) from new models, as the main load in a washing machine is the heater.

When talking about business processes, again there is some scope, but businesses are there to make a profit. They don't make a profit by having people and machinery stood around doing nothing while waiting for some wind. And few will tolerate a return to the days of queuing for work on a daily basis - "good news chaps, I can employ you today as the wind forecast is good". Some things can be done - there's talk of, for example, of turning down heating/air conditioning for peak lopping. But a lot that can't - easily and/or cheaply.

As you say, we've had decades of on-demand power. In fact we've had it longer than that. Arguably the rot set in with Arkwright and his mills - going back to 1771. That took cotton spinning from a cottage industry which would have been amenable to the sort of changes you wish for, to an industrial scale which isn't.

Change will take a long time to happen, and I genuinely do not believe it's possible to make the levels of change you talk about - not while maintaining anything resembling an industrial base to pay for it.

So given that the level of change needed to eliminate the problem, storage is going to be needed - or we carry on burning lots of gas for power generation.
In short - we need a mix because no single "thing" is going to fix everything on it's own.
Logged
spaces
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 315



« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2012, 01:46:35 PM »

It seems to me that there is an awful lot of 'can't do' mindset around. Fossil fuels have been handy and cheap for a hundred years and the world has grown up around them. So just as America is the country built round the motor car and Britain was built around the horse and cart, some places in this world are better placed to make use of renewable fuel and will build their own energy infrastructures accordingly. But Britain (just about) copes with millions of cars and lorries with the new infrastructure layer built to the side of and on top of the old. It has always been so in this world.

Since we can send man to the Moon (supposedly) then altering our energy supply networks and consumer behaviour is quite possible. 'Old' nations like ours which have been on the slide for decades and which have developed a nanny state mentality in the population will struggle more than most, but it will be done one way or the other - it will be a shame if we are carried kicking and screaming into the future. The French with their nukes will fair better for a while, until the appalling consequences - including costs - are recognised. Nuclear-heavy nations may become the regional dust-bins and suppliers of dirty electricity for heavy manufacturing - contaminated areas which people stay clear of.

 
Logged
SimonHobson
Guest
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2012, 01:59:43 PM »

It seems to me that there is an awful lot of 'can't do' mindset around.
There's a difference between "can't do" and "can't afford". The technology does more or less exists to achieve (for example) what Martin wants - a wholesale shift of usage patterns to match supply. With enough political will, smart metering could be more or less in place within a decade, less for all industrial users. "Appropriate" tariffs to coerce people into shifting their usage patterns would have a fairly swift effect.

My personal opinion is that within another few years we'd have no industrial base (businesses would have ****ed off to other countries with "better" energy supplies), and our current financial situation would be something good to aspire to.

Quote
The French with their nukes will fair better for a while, until the appalling consequences - including costs - are recognised. Nuclear-heavy nations may become the regional dust-bins and suppliers of dirty electricity for heavy manufacturing - contaminated areas which people stay clear of.
Or again, my opinion is that they could turn out to be where people go for cheap reliable power and a good living standard based on a strong manufacturing base.
Logged
spaces
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 315



« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2012, 02:12:00 PM »

So you don't think there'll be a European supergrid? If the world changes half as much over the next hundred years as it has in the last hundred... if any of Tesla's cleverer ideas are developed it will be _very_ different.

I agree with your comment which implies manufacturing develops wealth, but I don't think nuclear power is the only sort required for it. In fact, we seemed to make our best products well before nuclear got started in this country. Factories which use enormous amounts of energy may choose to be near to rivers and coastal areas if that means cheaper electricity.   
Logged
wookey
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2672


WWW
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2012, 02:40:33 PM »

You can't store spuds when the winter is this mild: ours have all sprouted. Now I have a reverse-demand problem: we have to eat nothing _but_ potatoes for a while.

Quote
If the wind isn't blowing, you scale back fuel production to suit, if it is blowing, then you ramp it up. In the meantime, as long as you have enough fuel production facilities, you can keep the base load up and avoid having to "turn down" either source at night.

Well, done; you've stopped thining like a baseloader :-)

Spaces, if you think there is a lot of 'can't do' here, you should try the rest of the world. We right at the forefront of 'can do' people on this forum. How many of the people you know are ready to change their energy usage patterns to be frugal and supply-driven. And their jobs? How many of them have ever even thought about it?

Put the right financial incentives in place and you can shift people quite quickly though. It's probably not impossible.
Indeed I have a meeting about how to make one of Britain's fortune 500 companies change its energy-guzzling ways in an hour or so.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 02:54:10 PM by wookey » Logged

Wookey
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1847



« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2012, 03:34:58 PM »

Smart grids are being taken very seriously as it solves a lot of grid demand problems what is less well known is the domestic technology being used to replace domestic heat and power to achieve this. This report highlights the trend away from the central heating boiler as domestic heating requirements are reduced. Also on page 78 a slide showing the methane cycle mentioned earlier.

http://www.rug.nl/energyconvention/Speakers/presentations/seifert.pdf

Just in case anybody was unaware of the scale of the European gas grid and the influence of the new LNG terminals the slides are quite revealing.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!