Just saying hello

[Liz]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this so please be gentle.

I've joined because I am really interested in your opinions on world population and food production and sustainablilty.

I may soon get the opportunity to run a smallholding on Dartmoor.  Currently running scottish blackface sheep.

I could therefore:
1.  carry on with the scottish blackfaces
2.  change to another breed of sheep
3.  harvest the grass directly - either as hay or siliage
4.  plant trees
5.  forget production altogether and manage for wildlife

Any suggestions?

Liz

[martin]

Nice to have you aboard - hopefully there's loads already on the board about your particular areas of interest, and I'm sure people will be happy to discuss them all at greater length.
My own personal view is that one of the biggest problems we face is overpopulation, and we need to get a grip on it pdq - food production is sadly mostly in the hands of "Big Ag" which means that we are essentially on a hiding to nothing as it is based on the idiotic assumption that we can continue to bludgeon nature into submission - we desperately need to move towards genuinely sustainable agri and horti-culture before the damage being done by the present system becomes irreversible.

You may enjoy the following -

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RdOk521m9WA?version=3&amp;amp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/RdOk521m9WA?version=3&amp;amp</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vi1FTCzDSck?version=3&amp;amp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/vi1FTCzDSck?version=3&amp;amp</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TVlJqwft9I8?version=3&amp;amp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/TVlJqwft9I8?version=3&amp;amp</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/PQDqEUd53YQ?version=3&amp;amp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/PQDqEUd53YQ?version=3&amp;amp</a>

[clockmanFR]

Hi Liz,

Sheep or hay/grass, we have 8 1/2 acres of good grass and local farmers are allways trying to get it for the year, seems to be the general rule that if they cut it, turn it and bale it, you are entitled to half of the bales. We also make sure whoever cuts, different farmer every year, puts good old manure over the whole field at the appropriate time of year. We have never allowed anything else, most have now come round to our way of thinking.

Our sheep have a good section of the fields and orchard (47 cider apple trees), but to be honest the fencing etc and maintenance costs are going to take many years to recuperate against selling the lamb. I am doing everything myself, coppice's/pollarding the old hedges, but good sheep wire fence is better long term than just 6 strands of barbed wire.
On the other hand good fencing keeps the flipping neighbours bullocks/cows out.
Electric fence is okay but needs constant inspection and my lot at first were not electric fence trained and shot off in all directions.


Breeds, stick to what you know, ours are just not pretty but its the local breed. (see small scale meat farming on the Dig for Victory section)

[Liz]

Thanks Martin and Clockman,

This is just the sort of thing I need.   

I'm not sure what I can do personally (or morally) about population growth except the obvious - think globally, act locally so Beau and I don't have any children.  What's interesting from the videos is that a population growth of less than 2% per year (which must be 100 people replacing themselves with 102 people) - a fairly stable population on the face of it - doubles the population (through what must be the equivalent of compound interest) in only a few years. 

I'm with you all the way Martin but I'm not sure about your chap's logic re immigration which must globally mean emigration too = net balance.  I guess he's American and can't help it - what with the "world" baseball series and all that.  ... Unless he's talking about people coming in from Mars.  She's a bit hard on Monsanto - I'm sure they are awful but there must be other companies out there who are just as bad - or has ICI given up? 

As for the best thing to do with a small farm, I like your system of whoever gets half the hay manures the fields (and presumably they put the manure on before they get the hay) - I'll find out what the going rate for hay harvesting is in this area.  This is a particularly good idea as it involves minimal input from me as, by the time this all gets going, I'll hopefully be working full time - I'm a student nurse at the moment.

Sheep and electric fencing - now that's interesting, I thought they would just wear it in their horns or go straight through, insulated by their wool.  Electric fence training ... does that involve introducing them as lambs and then they respect it for ever after?  and I hate barbed wire, especially high tensile, I've worked with the stuff (I used to volunteer for British Trust for Conservation Volunteers BTCV) and I hate it with a passion.

When our old neighbour's sheep started breaking in he used to take it as a sign that his fields were tired and move them elsewhere.  He never repaired the fence and nor did we and we used to return the compliment from time to time.  Now, new neighbours have installed fencing along the Devon banks so their sheep never get in and when our sheep get out they get stuck between the hedge and the fence and die if unfound.  We can't see they are stuck as there is a Devon bank in the way.  A poet once said that good fences make good neighbours but on this occasion, the opposite is true. 

Thanks for your replies and keep them coming.

Liz

[stannn]

I don't know if you have a collie Liz but mine 'points' to trapped sheep. The last sheep he found was a similar situation to yours, on a country lane but between stone wall and sheep netting and it was on its last legs.
I do think that Clockman is getting a very high 'price' for his hay, especially on a small acreage. I used to get about 20% back from my temporary tenant.
Stan

[martin]

"a bit hard on Monsanto" - in my view it's impossible to be too hard on Monsanto (being Beelzebub incarnate) - thousands of her countrymen have committed suicide thanks to that company's GM frankencrap, and the mayhem it wreaks - there are several other companies up there that are just as bad - Bayer and Syngenta spring to mind...........

[biff]

hi liz,
        welcome to the forum.hopefully you will find it as pleasent and helpfull as i did.
                                                      good luck,,biff

[Liz]

Thanks for the heads up Martin.

Stan - your collie sounds worth her weight in gold.  We have got a collie but she is a bit of a head case, sometimes she'll go round the sheep perfectly and at others she runs away over the horizon.  We suspect she was beaten up as a youngster as part of trials training and has never really got over it.

Thanks Biff for the welcome - there's loads to read and I'll probably start threads that are old hat but I'm sure someone will point me in the right direction.

I'm trying to live off the fat of the land and as I live on a farm that should be achieveable - I'm just hoping to get some pointers of how and, once we're up and running, I hope to post successes and failures - I'm sure everyone loves a good car crash as well as podium moments.

Liz

[martin]

I'd suggest acquiring a copy of John Seymour's classic "Self Sufficiency" - it is a wonderful source of information, and includes chapters on keeping all sorts of livestock on a small scale.

On the question of electric fences, we used  to live on a farm surrounded by sheep, and electrified sheep netting was used widely - like most animals, they tend to "lead with their nose", and having got a belt off a fence they tend to soon learn to stay clear - many farmers rely on them getting "fence shy", and don't bother to recharge/replace the batteries once they knacker out. Sometimes we'd find a sheep totally entangled in the netting, "twitching" in time to the pulsing of the fencer unit - and seemed to come to no permanent harm from it (sheep tend not to be the brightest of creatures)

[Liz]

I love that book! - Its what inspired me to "have the dream" when I was growing up in a council estate in Watford - that and "The Good Life".  I've just now been given the chance to "live the dream" - very different, scary, and really  muddy.  I was a bit discouraged about how simple the book made the bit about horses sound when I know it isn't and then I thought that the rest of the book could have the same simplification and make the difficult seem easy.  I'm encouraged that you think it is a worthwhile read and to be honest its ages since I read it cover to cover so I'll check it out again. 

I love books, Beau's mum lent me her books on sheep farming but they are all from the 60's and I'm sure things have changed since then. 

Can anyone recommend some up to date books about sheep farming or upland farming generally?

[guydewdney]

Im a smallholder too - have you considered becoming a wwoof host? look up wwoof uk. pm me if you want more info. Im only over in Exmoor.

I dont have sheep - I do pigs, chickens and the odd goose.

Buy a DECENT 100 quid+ fence zapper - mains only - dont bother with anything battery powered  (thats for stinky mangey nags). Consider pigs or chickens - they are great dustbins for waste.

get a 4x4 compact tractor with loader - incredibly useful to move stuff, dig, lift, shift, build, demolish. I have built an oak barn with one, and today demolished a breeze block wall for the neighbour. OK - they are expensive, but I think its worth it.

[Solal]

Any suggestions?

Convert it over to Permaculture.
I'm a small holder too.  
But my brother farms it. That  is up until  Brucelosis  and TB wiped out his  pure bred Limosoin herd  last year.

[Liz]

Thanks Guydewdney, pigs ... hmmm, never thought of that.  I visited a farm with intensive pigs and they were great - apart from the overcrowding, chain chewing, shredded ears & tails etc - I guess they'd plough the land up and get cold in winter - do they live out or in in winter?

How much electricity does an electric fence use?  I've got a mains set but don't run it except when I'm dieting my "stinky mangey nags (SMN)".

Sorry to hear about your brother's cows Solal, that's really upsetting. 

Permaculture and wwoof - I've got some research to do.

Liz

[guydewdney]

We have had several types - glos old spot, large black, saddle back, GOS x SB etc etc. they all live outside, in about 20' x 40' for two or three, one pig ark at one end. Yes, the ground is thoughroughly dug up by the end of the season. Some people use the ground for potatoes next year, and swap the land round - we buy weaners and fatten to slaughter, buy in spring, kill in autumn - easy. If you give them enough land, they dont do any damage (a mate has about a dozen on 15 acres - and you wouldnt know they were there). They are very easy to look after - the worst disease we have had is lice - which is solved with veg oil poured on them. Sheep - well, if you have nags, then you know about disease and ailments......

I have never had a chewed ear, or any sort of significant fighting - I could hand feed the last two.

I think the fence I have is 40 watts from memory - the first time you get foxed and lose a dozen laying hens (at a tenner+ each), you soon think that 40 watts is worth it.

also look at theaccidentalsmallholder

[Cornish Dragon]

Hi Liz,
Welcome to the forum.....
Sadly I know nothing about sheep but I am sure you
will find lots of interest here...
I too had the Good Life and more importantly John
Seymours book as my guide and now have chickens
and pigs hopefully this year....
Plus as much wholesome renewables as pos....
Only just over the Uk boarder in East Cornwall...
CU
CD