navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
UK's most popular Renewable Energy Forum May 25, 2012, 02:57:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: UPDATE ON DECC APPLICATION FOR LEAVE TO APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT | Yingli Green Energy's PV Module Ranks No.2 in TUV Rheinland Energy Yield Test | Navitron Solar Showers at Glastonbury for Year 5!
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: High-speed rail link HS2 set for go ahead from minister  (Read 1331 times)
martin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11438



WWW
« on: January 10, 2012, 01:24:53 PM »

"Transport secretary Justine Greening to emphasise benefits to other UK cities from 200mph London-to-Birmingham link

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/10/high-speed-rail-link-minister?intcmp=122

The transport secretary will attempt to underline the benefits of high-speed rail to the rest of the country, beyond the planned routes between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, as she gives the green light to the £32bn project on Tuesday.

Justine Greening will confirm the first phase of the route from London to Birmingham on which high-speed trains will start running in 2026. She will also stress that the investment will mean faster, better services, and more trains to destinations beyond Britain's second city, and emphasise the first phase should be only the foundation of a future network.

With opponents of the project questioning the huge expenditure for time savings of half an hour between London and Birmingham, the government will stress that early beneficiaries of the scheme will be places off or beyond the HS2 route. Some high-speed trains – although not the double deckers mooted at the weekend by Greening – would continue onward on existing track to destinations on the west side of the country. Liverpool, Glasgow and Preston will first to benefit from these through-running services from 2026, travelling the first stage from London to the West Midlands at more than 200mph.

Manchester would also see reduced journey times southwards even before the network's second phase is finished in 2032, connecting it to Birmingham. At that point, should a proposed spur joining the Eurostar route out of St Pancras be built, passengers from Paris will have the tantalising prospect of reaching Manchester on direct trains in 3½ hours.

Leeds will be equally accessible when the second branch of the Y-shaped network is finished also in 2032. It will cut journey times from Birmingham to Leeds – and beyond to Durham and Newcastle – by almost an hour.

A Department for Transport source said: "HS2 is not just about getting between London, Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester more quickly, but bringing faster services and many more seats to towns and cities well beyond the HS2 network.

"It would work just like a motorway. No one uses a motorway to get all the way from their front door to their final destination, but they use it because it offers high capacity and faster services – precisely what HS2 will offer rail passengers."

Numerous business leaders, unions and some economists have recently come out in favour of the scheme, although others describe the government's economic case as seriously flawed. Environmental groups have expressed loud concerns.

While the benefits of faster links may be clearer for towns and cities in the north, the government will have to contend with anger in its heartlands in southern constituencies, which will face the prospect of years of construction for no direct local benefit.

On Monday the Countryside Alliance warned that the government had yet to take "full consideration of the devastating impact HS2 will have on Britain's countryside or the lives of the hundreds of thousands of people living along the route".

The concerns of campaigners in the Chilterns are likely to be tempered by mitigation measures, possibly including an extra stretch of tunnel north of Amersham in the Chiltern hills, meaning that miles of the track would run underground. This alteration to the route is believed to one of the considerations that led Greening to delay her decision from December. It is unlikely to completely assuage local fears about the effects of building the network, with some calculating that merely removing the spoil from tunnelling will involve many hundreds of thousands of lorry journeys, but might give political cover to Tory MPs such as the Welsh secretary, Cheryl Gillan, who has threatened to resign over HS2.

The coalition's immediate concern is whether Gillan feels the package fails to make any changes in her constituency of Chesham and Amersham; she has said she would rather resign than accept the route as it has been proposed but officials have worked hard in consultation with MPs and ministers to take on board their concerns and suggested the eventual route will show the government has listened.

One source suggested Gillan had indicated she might not decide until the legislation has been published in 2013 – a date allowing the government some leeway in dealing with any parliamentary rebellion. One MP at the vanguard of opposition – Andrea Leadsom, MP for South Northamptonshire – has predicted "more than 30" MPs may rebel.

Any vote at second reading of the legislation could be as late as autumn 2013, meaning the flashpoint for any resignations or parliamentary revolt would be delayed significantly. Pressure is not acute on the government as Labour supports the plan and legislation would be likely to pass easily, but the prime minister, David Cameron, will not want to lose a cabinet minister as it would force a reshuffle he has not been inclined to perform"
Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
martin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11438



WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 01:33:59 PM »

32 billion? - that'll end up as at least 96 billion then....... (which would be far better spent on renewables, supergrids and insulation) - I am not often rendered near speechless at idiotic government policies, but this lunacy really takes the biscuit. I'm very "pro" rail travel, and would like to see expenditure on making using the trains easier and cheaper (and adding much-needed rolling stock), but this is just plain potty.....
All this will do is to encourage more long-distance commuting, rather than less, and for some peculiar reason, the public are having to cough up for what I believed was a privatised industry... fume
Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
dimengineer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 674


« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 02:54:29 PM »

What can I say. I'm all for it, because one of the main problems in this country is poor infrastructure. The cost of the first phase is "only" £17-18bn. The £32bn is for the full Leeds/Manchester system.

The reason thats its not private money is that the majority of the benefits are not realisable in cash terms through the ticket prices. In the same way that local authorities subsidise buses etc, because of their wider value to the economy.

That being said, I am always astounded by the cost of these schemes - it does seem as though UK major projects cost loads more than equivalents in Europe or the USA

Tim
Logged

21 tube Kloben Panel/250L Megaflow, 1.68kWp Solar PV - 7 x 240W Sanyo Panels
martin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11438



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 03:01:36 PM »

Why the need for speed? I can understand vast expensive improvements to the rail system and rolling stock, but to improve the speed between two great wens at huge cost seems potty (and will only encourage more energy-wasting commuting) - rail ticket prices are sufficiently high already that I've found it cheaper to use a car with one occupant...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:03:34 PM by martin » Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
spaces
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 315



« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 03:10:39 PM »

What would the far-sighted and clear-thinking Victorians have done? Rather than prioritising the linking of business centres -where movement of humans isn't required anymore for information transfer (v. high speed internet makes more sense for this) - they most likely would have prioritized reducing road congestion, the demand for internal air travel, the connection of backwaters to economic hubs as well as the linking of our countries' capitals and major tourist destinations between which people travel.

They would have probably wished to remove freight transport from the road network and back onto the railways - the only sensible way of carrying heavy loads around a country. An old railway driver from the steam days once told me that without the profits from carrying freight, railways would always lose money.

Two HS railway lines, but not necessarily exclusively for v high speed trains - London-Cambridge-Kings Lynn-Hull-York-Darlington-Edinburgh and London-Oxford-Liverpool-Kendal-Glasgow-Edinburgh. The Preston-Edinburgh stretch could upgrade the existing lines to make them as fast as feasibly possible. The existing network should be invested in heavily and renationalised.

The UK is a honeypot of history for increasingly numerous and wealthy Indians and Chinese; like it or not there will be more and more tourism in Britain and this will contribute more to our economy, increasingly more if we consider our assets. We're the cradle of modern civilisation yet from Brunel to Wordsworth and from Bell, Baird & McAdam to Watt, we make very little of our history - this ought to change.

Our old Empire has had huge lasting effects on the world and many still see Britain as a form of mother-country. Our landscapes are breathtakingly beautiful, fantastic architecture from the industrial revolution stands testimony to our former greatness (think of West Yorkshire alone) and thousand-year old churches and 12th century cathedrals mark our views. The remote beauty of Scotland's extremities shades anything I've seen anywhere else in Europe. The history of the Lords of the Isles alone is enough to enchant anyone keen enough to visit the museum on Sleat, Isle of Skye.

Building the new lines would help ease road traffic on the M6, M40, M11, M74 and A1 (it's a scandal that our two major capitals are linked by a single-carriageway road) and underdeveloped backwaters such as East Lincolnshire would be connected to the rest of the country. For too long successive governments have pussy-footed around and have failed to make bold decisions and look well into the future - it's about time they did or the UK will become the poorest outpost of the EU.  

« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:30:06 PM by spaces » Logged
clockmanFR
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 775



« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 03:21:20 PM »

Sorry it was bound to happen, whats the point of being in government if you can not profit, pigs in the trough again.

Its the new artist impression that got me, Wind Turbines giving the impression of what?
Logged

Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
dimengineer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 674


« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 03:48:34 PM »

One thing I might add is that this last summer I (and the family) took the train to Saarbrucken in Germany. London to Paris, Paris to Saarbrucken - High speed all the way (except a 20 minute walk across Paris). This was, all things considered, faster than flying, and a lot more civilised. But it was only possible because of the High Speed lines - otherwise it would have been a veeerrrrrry long journey (I can still remember Calais to Lausanne many years ago which was an 18 hour train journey)

So, speed is good. Whilst travel is nice, and its sometimes good to kick back and enjoy the ride, mostly travel time is dead time. 
Logged

21 tube Kloben Panel/250L Megaflow, 1.68kWp Solar PV - 7 x 240W Sanyo Panels
martin
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11438



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 03:56:51 PM »

If you're commuting I'd agree, (but that's a daft idea ecologically, particularly at energy gobbling speeds) - if you're holidaying by rail, I would say that style and comfort is of far more importance - some years ago I had to go to Frankfurt on business with a friend, he announced that we'd fly.... I rapidly put him right - "you fly, I'll meet you there", and went by ferry/train (not a fast train)- had an utterly delightful trip, saw the countryside, ate and drank extremely well, met some charming people, and sauntered off the train at the other end, relaxed and with a grin on my face, met by my friend who'd flown, who was visibly frazzled........... Grin
Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
spaces
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 315



« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 04:20:59 PM »

The wonderful thing about pushing the boundaries with regard to speed is that transport becomes more efficient, at any speed, since to make something go faster you have to become more efficient.

My quarter of a million mile large Audi estate car will cruise for mile on mile at 90 mph and average over 40mpg (on used cooking oil!) That's better than the equivalent car would have managed at two-thirds the speed, 30 years ago. The car will travel at 130mph if necessary and pull a very heavy trailer, it returns over 50mpg when driving within the UK law. Equally, a Golf estate in the family regularly betters 60mpg in everyday use.

It is telling that both these cars come from the country with de-restricted motorways, which has Europe's most successful motor industry, and as far as much of the world is concerned, builds the best cars. 

Logged
smegal
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 07:18:14 PM »

I think this will be amazing. The first phase to Birmingham is not that important. Adding better links to Manchester and Leeds and hopefully Scotland will benefit the country.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 07:29:51 PM by smegal » Logged

"Hell, there are no rules here, we are trying to accomplish something." Thomas Edison
Heinz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 498



« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 08:12:49 PM »

Seems to that the railways have not progressed at all since the Victorians built them. It's high time they had some serious cash spent on them and new lines built. I'll eat my hat if it ever reaches Scotland though...

H
Logged

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try' "  Yoda
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1847



« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 08:26:11 PM »

I hope we get a hydro scheme every time the line crosses a river but I imagine it will be just a boring bridge. 2nd bridge on the seven could have been a barrage if a bit more creative thinking had been used.

Continental double height trains maybe not that would be to radical.
Logged
smegal
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 08:31:14 PM »

I'll eat my hat if it ever reaches Scotland though...

That's the plan.
Logged

"Hell, there are no rules here, we are trying to accomplish something." Thomas Edison
Heinz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 498



« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 08:46:25 PM »


That's the plan.

That may be the plan, but the further anything is from London, the less important it is to the feckers in charge. By the time it gets close to Scotland it'll be sooo far over budget. I think my hat is safe....

H
Logged

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try' "  Yoda
Philip R
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 384


« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 09:18:14 PM »

This kind of radical spend needed to be done back in the 1960 / 70s. Hopefully the job might be finished before I kick the bucket. I might even reach retirement age of 68,70! no 75!! before it is finished.

Double decker trains, high speed, on standard gauge, I hope not. Double decker is fine on standard gauge in a straight line nice and slow, but not at 240-300 mph and beyond.

Martin mentioned a worthwhile  point about the impact of the new trains a while back, these fast trains do gobble the loads of MWs when on the fast roll. Makes their greenness diminish when compared to cars and aeroplanes (Grams of carbon per 100 passenger  kilometers, I do not have figures to hand, but was discussed in IET last year or so. However, regenerative breaking improves the overall efficiency of the system.

The wind turbines mentioned would generate a peak from the air wash from the passing train, therefore minimising the objections from the NIMBYs about the excess size sterile zone beside the tracks!!!

Hopefully we will not repeat the Bombardier/ Siemens fiasco and buy some UK stock and steel track from a UK factory and steel mill. In twenty years time, it will have PRC stamped on the bottom!

PhilipR.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!