Nickel Iron Batteries

[Jeremy]

Clearly, and unlike me, you hold very strong personal views and don't seem very prepared to consider anyone else's perspective as being valid from their particular perspective.

The website you linked to has significant serious factual errors (20 years life?  Where did they get that from?) so is not "impartial".  Just do a web search for "Edison Cell" and have a read.  You'll find many people using them for off grid supplies and people testifying that they last a heck of a lot longer than a 20 years  (I found a mention of a set still going strong after 68 years on the first page of results, for example).  The ones I used were around 30 years old and were still at full capacity, so I am certain that the 20 year figure you linked to is in error.

As an aside, why does this forum get so emotive and seemingly unpleasant?  It's the reason I stopped posting here 6 months ago, and it doesn't seem to have got more reasonable in the period I've been away. 

[martin]

We try to give fair and honest advice to people -  this is a subject that has been raised before, and the general consensus was (and still is) that they are not the best for "off-grid" applications, and as I've pointed out, all the worldwide experts in battery storage have suggested that flooded lead/acids still represent the best value.

As for the nonsense about "strong personal views" and "unpleasantness" - I've just gone back and read all the posts again - if there's any "chippiness" and "unnecessary bias" it's certainly not been from the forum's "old hands" - if you have a bottomless pit of money, don't give a flying fig about the enormous lossage of energy, and are happy to spend a small fortune on something that has been generally dismissed for really good reasons, that's utterly fine, but please don't try suggesting that we are "giving them a rough ride" for no reason.

If someone asks probably 99% of those qualified to answer "what's the best sort of batteries for off grid use" the answer has to be "flooded lead acid" - there may be developments that may change that, but in the meantime the advice stands.........

[martin]

and here's a chunk from the earlier thread from someone who'd used them

"My sister and brother-in-law have NiFe batteries.
They last a long time - if you like a battery that barely works as a battery.
Charge efficiency is terrible - so is self-discharge. This means that 50% or more of the power you generate is wasted, not stored. And that's when they are "working properly".
They are very uncommon, so you are basically on your own trying to figure out any problems with them."

[Heinz]

Hi Jeremy, Martin does appear to have robust opinions about some things, but don't let him chase you away, he ain't the whole forum...
I've spent the last few nights reading the NiFe stuff on the net and the few who actually have a decent bank of them seem to like them, those who don't, don't.
Found a scanned copy of Edisons NiFe instruction book on the WaybackMachine which is cool.
Some interesting stuff on youtube edsworkshop I may have to give the steel wool NiFe battery a whirl, think I'll try and buy the basic chemicals rather than making them from scratch though.....

H

[billi]

If I was, say, 40 years old and investing in an off-grid system to last me until the end of my days I'd almost certainly invest in NiFe cells.  On the other hand, if I was 70 years old and doing the same I'd probably opt for flooded lead acid.

Just get enough PV       and do not overestimate  the batteries in an off grid system , make sure your charging supply is sufficient    , get the cheapest with the most live cycles  per % of discharge


Thats still  flooded lead acid to me .....?

75 % of the days per year  we only discharge the battery by 10-30 %

Billi

[Jeremy]

Maybe I'm too sensitive, but there does seem to be a high ratio of people here who sit on high hobby horses and seem intolerant of having a rational and well-ordered debate versus those who are more willing to explore other ideas.

Any way, my last post on the topic.  Here is the only hard data I could get on the FIAMM off-grid type cells that Martin mentioned and the only two manufacturers of NiFe that I could find that give data that might be half way accurate (there is a lot more data about but I'm not confident enough of its validity to post it here):-


FIAMM endurlite tubular lead acid for off-grid use

http://www.fiamm.com/downloads/lm_solar_emea_2011_hr.pdf

Cycle life:

5000 cycles at 20% DoD
1500 cycles at 60% DoD
If charged and discharged every day by 20% then they would last just under 14 years.

Design life:

20 years at continuous float charge



Zappworks (US manufactured) NiFe for off grid use

http://www.zappworks.com/battery_specs.htm

Cycle life:

Infinite with electrolyte change
3000 cycles at 30% DoD per electrolyte fill
1000 cycles at 100% DoD per electrolyte fill
If charged and discharged every day by 20% then they would need an electrolyte change after around 9 or 10 years use.

Design life:

100 years at continuous float charge



Changhong (Chinese manufactured) NiFe for off-grid use

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/down/index/0d4b6f9509fcbf3c7e9bbb4d7821e49f.pdf

Cycle life:

8500 cycles at 20% DoD
2300 cycles at 60% DoD
If charged and discharged every day by 20% then they would last around 23 years (but note design life below).

Design life:

20 years at continuous float charge

I guess people can make up their own minds as to which represents a reasonable choice for their circumstances.  I'm not a particular supporter of either, but if the price was OK I would probably come down on the side of NiFe, both for reasons of longevity and lack of long-lived toxicity.

[martin]

As chief admin I am very aware that what is offered on the forum in the way of advice is read by people with all sorts of aptitudes and understanding of the subject, and try to ensure that there is no ambiguity in stating what is considered mainstream and what isn't - I would hate someone new to the subject read that "NIFE" is the way to go for off-grid storage, and on the strength of what they read here, go off and invest a small fortune in what most experts in the field have dismissed as "unsuitable" .
As always I try to look at what I'd advise a friend to do - in the case of NIFE batteries, it would be to mutter about "bargepoles", but that's just the mainstream view.

Having said that, there is always room for experimentation, and trying out new and "different" technologies, and many on  the board are happy to be out there on the "leading edge", and are happy to experiment and risk their hard earned cash to try things out, and I would be the last person to try to dissuade them, but suggest that people should wherever possible make an informed choice....


 Please, would proponents of NIFE cells not ask the entirely reasonable question of "why?" all the experts in the field advise against them (based on decades of experience) - don't believe me, believe the experts!

[Jeremy]

Great, get a view you don't agree with and you pull rank with the "Chief Admin" moniker....................  Confirms my earlier view of the nature of this forum.

Look, read my posts.  Am I recommending these cells to people who know nothing?  No I bloody well am not!!!

Why on earth do we have to skate around certain topics because of an irrational fear of someone reading parts of them and taking them out of context?

What on earth is wrong with having a rational and well-informed debate about the strengths and weaknesses of different off-grid energy storage options?

The bottom line is as I've already written here, people should make their own choice that best matches their preferences and personal circumstances, based on getting the widest range of information and opinions they can.  They should not accept being dictated to by anyone, especially someone who appear not to have taken the time, or been sufficiently open minded, to consider other possible solutions.

[martin]

I'm not stopping any debate, I've just pointed out the mainstream view, lest anyone should leap to the conclusion that NIFE cells are recommended as "mainstream advice"

[camillitech]

It's 'horses for courses' but I suspect that most of the NiFe cells used for 'Off grid' applications are in places where energy is cheap and efficiency of little concern. They were probably very popular and made sense when gas was 10 cents a gallon but with their poor efficiency I wouldn't recommend them for an 'off grid' situation unless it was fed solely by hydro and you got them VERY cheap. But that's just my opinion and I'm no expert 

[pj]

Seems like Martin is back to his old ways, ranting and raving at someone who holds a different opinion to himself. In this situation, Jeremy, the only advice I can give is just keep quiet, and try not to rise to the (non de)bait.

[martin]

Go back and read all the posts (I have) - the question of suitability of NIFE batteries for off-grid use has been raised again - I have very carefully and politely pointed out their many drawbacks for such use - I can detect no "ranting and raving", except Jeremy's false accusations of my doing so -if people want to experiment, that's utterly fine, as is discussing their suitability for certain uses, but I am not going to sit idly by and leave essentially bad advice to go unquestioned and unremarked

[biff]

i cannot believe what i am seeing here,
                        this is a contrived and deliberate attack on a moderator.
      i see no ranting and raving from martin in fact he just pointed out that the said batteries were not at all suitable for renewable energy  because,,?  because?? the losses were too great,,,,,period !
   if nifi were any good we would all know about it,they have been around for long enough,,!
    these attacks on moderators will have to stop.its quite stupid really,,
                                                                               biff

[martin]

Battery technology and the best way to use them is a fascinating subject, and as in many subjects there's lots of "spin" put on the capabilities of various types by their manufacturers - here's a link to a well-respected site which explains in some depth all about the different types -
http://batteryuniversity.com - and this is the relevant page about NIFE batteries http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/weird_and_wonderful_batteries

[Heinz]

For F***s Sake!! this squabble is the last thing I expected to be caused by my question.
If this was my kids, no matter who was right or wrong, they'd be sent to different rooms to cool down....

H