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Author Topic: Plumbers unprepared for move to energy-efficient homes, report warns  (Read 937 times)
martin
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« on: January 12, 2012, 09:12:36 AM »

from - http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/12/plumbers-energy-efficient-homes-engineers

"Royal Academy of Engineering says lack of necessary skills will hamper UK's ability to switch to lower carbon forms of heating

Plumbers are almost wholly unprepared for the "drastic change" to the way the UK's homes are heated as part of efforts to cut carbon emissions, leading engineers said on Thursday, meaning householders could need to turn to architects and engineers at a potential cost of over £20,000 per house.

In a report published on Thursday, the Royal Academy of Engineering (RAE) also warned that government plants for insulation and green energy are not adequate for the changes needed for a shift to low-carbon heating. They called for a massive switch to renewable energy such as solar water heaters and wood-burning stoves to a street by street effort to upgrade insulation in Britain's draughty homes.

About a quarter of the UK's carbon emissions come from heating residential buildings, largely with gas. To meet future carbon reduction targets, the amount of fuel used must come down drastically and millions of homes will have to use new technology such as heat pumps.

The lack of necessary skills among plumbers and heating installers is proving a major brake on the UK's ability to make this switch, the RAE found. The study found examples of inexperienced or underqualified installers causing serious problems.

One household paid thousands more than it should have because a heat pump had been wrongly connected - instead of energy bills falling as they had expected, the bills soared from £30 to £250 a month. It cost thousands to fix. In another case cited by one of the study authors, solid wall insulation was badly installed in some old housing stock, causing condensation to collect on the walls and rot floor joists.

The authors called for more investment in "upskilling" heating engineers and installers, and a coordinated approach across the UK that would enable houses to be upgraded at a lower cost.

"We can no longer just muddle through," said Scott Steedman of the RAE. "We need to make drastic changes."

The engineers were wary of government plans to upgrade homes through its much-vaunted "green deal" policy, which will come into force late this year. Under the scheme, households will be offered loans to improve their properties' energy efficiency.

However, individual households will be responsible themselves for choosing to sign up to the scheme, which will be offered by a wide range of providers from energy utilities and supermarkets and large retailers to one-man-band plumbers and builders.

Rather than take this approach - which relies on people taking a long-term view of their future energy costs by agreeing to pay back loans over years through additions to their bills - it would be much more efficient to offer insulation street-by-street and housing estate by housing estate, the engineers said. This could work by asking householders in a particular area to opt out of a bigger scheme to insulate each building, rather than having to opt in.

"Street by street, group by group, estate by estate [would work]," said Steedman. "The green deal needs to be implemented very carefully or it could be just a mad scramble for DIY equipment. It has to be done in a considered way, to standards. This is a big investment and it has to be made in the national interest."

The authors also found that the UK could not rely on heat pump technology, as other studies have suggested, because it would lead to a 50% increase in electricity use. Heat pumps need electricity to work, but generate more energy than they use.

They also found that relying on large-scale renewables on the electricity grid, and switching houses over to electric heating, would not work because of the difficulty of meeting peaks in demand. "To attempt to meet the whole of such a load by renewables based on wind, tides or sun would require a level of installed capacity that would be almost impossible to build and that would be standing idle for most of the summer months, making energy very expensive," said the report.

But if houses can be upgraded and low-carbon heating systems installed, the UK is likely to save billions and generate new jobs. "Managing the UK's [heating] energy systems in a way that reduces CO2, avoids expensive imports, ensures energy security, does not exacerbate fuel poverty, supports job creation and works with - rather than against - the market will be hugely difficult," said Roger Kemp, professor of engineering at Lancaster University. "Government is only just coming to terms with the complexity of these multiple demands on policy."
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dimengineer
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 11:12:24 AM »

Oh god yes... some of them don't even know how to install modern unvented systems and still go for medieval unpressurised system with dead birds in the water tank in the loft ....... ballspin

(Only winding you up Martin    whistlie)


Tim
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martin
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »

Or perhaps haven't yet learned the advantages of the wisdom of a small "reservoir" in the loft to tide us over through the water cuts in the uncertain years to come (having been brainwashed by the "pressurise everything brigade") ralph
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artful_bodger
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 02:24:07 PM »

More training for plumbers.  Fantastic.  I cant get a plumber for less that £50/hour.  By the time they have taken 2 weeks off for more training, plus more equipment, plus calibration costs, that'll be £60/hour to change a ball cock.

Why cant these idiots who publish these reports simply accept that not everyone wants to work at the highest level.  Some people are actually quite happy sweeping the streets.  Dont try and force them to get a HGV license so they could drive a dust cart.
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pb
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »

Quote
Plumbers are almost wholly unprepared for the "drastic change" to the way the UK's homes are heated as part of efforts to cut carbon emissions, leading engineers said on Thursday, meaning householders could need to turn to architects and engineers at a potential cost of over £20,000 per house.

Hm.  You've gotta think that, no matter how unprepared the plumbers might be, asking an architect to install your heating system is going to be an even worse idea.
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pb
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 04:10:20 PM »

More training for plumbers.  Fantastic.  I cant get a plumber for less that £50/hour.  By the time they have taken 2 weeks off for more training, plus more equipment, plus calibration costs, that'll be £60/hour to change a ball cock.

Why cant these idiots who publish these reports simply accept that not everyone wants to work at the highest level.  Some people are actually quite happy sweeping the streets.  Dont try and force them to get a HGV license so they could drive a dust cart.

I don't think anybody's arguing that _all_ plumbers need to have extra training, just that it would be a good idea for the ones who want to install heating systems to understand the technologies that they are likely to encounter.  If that means that you get more of a separation between "heating installers" and regular plumbers, with the former charging more to offset the extra training/equipment/whatever that they need, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Having recently been through the frustrating experience of trying to get a new boiler installed for use with a thermal store (which ought to have been straightforward, but the first three gas fitters who came out to try refused to commission it because they didn't understand the way the store worked) I tend to agree that more training in renewables and "modern" systems probably would be a good thing.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 06:37:06 PM »

More training for plumbers.  Fantastic.  I cant get a plumber for less that £50/hour.  By the time they have taken 2 weeks off for more training, plus more equipment, plus calibration costs, that'll be £60/hour to change a ball cock.

Why cant these idiots who publish these reports simply accept that not everyone wants to work at the highest level.  Some people are actually quite happy sweeping the streets.  Dont try and force them to get a HGV license so they could drive a dust cart.


I think you have a point there Mr artful, a lot of plumbers just don't need all the agro and expense that goes with all this malarkey. It is more down to being certificated and the cost of proving it, rather than competant. To give you an example, I have to do my CPA* exam or face loosing some of my elements, so I have to do a morning in a class of board numpties at a cost of 185 plus vat and then ongoing calibrations, to prove I can use a bit of kit I have been happily using for nearly 15 years. I can't just demonstrate that I can use a CPA, I have to have the qualification.
The whole renewable and MCS baloney is an order of magnitude worse than that. The end result is effectively to drive me out of the whole renewable scene, which is a real bummer when you consider that I installed my first solar thermal system in 1978.

I guess if my business was solely solar installations it would be worth the cost of accreditation, but that is hardly likely to be  the case for many sole traders and small businesses that have been trading for more than a few years really. It is another reason why the LABC should oversee all installations IMHO, if a system is safe and generates power, who cares who put it on the roof?

*Combustion performance analysis
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 07:15:24 PM »

It is all about keeping training companies in business these days. The Green Steal is another one that wants to have lots of specdfially qualified 'assessors' on top of the specially approved installers. Lots of jobs for the training boys.

Lots of posts on here about how the plumber couldn't cope or didn't have a clue so nothing new about the basis of the article, but as said above an architect is going to be just as hopeless and sadly even most engineers are pretty useless at real engineering these days.
Did someone on here say recently you have to remember 50% of people are below average intelligence?

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clockmanFR
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 07:24:20 PM »

And what is wrong, with unvented water systems?

Not new here and the rest of the World seem to use them.
 ralph
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dimengineer
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 07:56:12 PM »

And what is wrong, with unvented water systems?

Not new here and the rest of the World seem to use them.
 ralph

Noooooooo....... dont start. Please. Pretty Please.. There are some who think they are the devils work.. black magic... ballspin
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 09:55:46 PM »

nobody but nobody can sink your ship like a dodgy plumber,
              he can flood the place costing thousands to get right.he can leave such a mess after him that it takes a good 3 days to leave everything right.when i was contracting,i got such grief from plumbers that i went to night school and got the basics ,so that i would know who was ok and who was not.there is no headache to match the one you get when you are stuck between a client and a plumber.twice i got houses set on fire(accidentally),then i got houses flooded(they dont seem to mind).going through the ceiling was the most common,then i got goods like hot water cylinders foul threaded and told they came like that (i had the perfect solution to that one). but when i got a good plumber i really looked after him,paid his rooms,dinners etc, bit like alex ferguson and rooney hysteria hysteria.
 then i came back home to ireland and the celtic tiger got going,my neighbours were installing woodchip boilers and solar heating.the plumbers came out of the north and did at least 5 jobs that i knew personally,their blue transit was visible for miles away and i i though the plumbers in hearts were bad,well they were nothing to these cowboys.they were so bad that the plumbers coming after them could not tell how they hoped it would work. a few years later and the woodchip boilers were getting thrown out on the street as scrap and the solar water heating are still being worked on to this day. in the beginning the going rate to install dhw,underfloor heating and a 30 tube solar system with big heat storage tank was 8,000 euros boiler extra ,,ahhhh..that hurt. especially for a system that never worked properly.i knew a plumber that when he had everything ready to rumble,the joints all fluxed and set out,i would lock the doors and let no one near him untill he had blown them all in.then we would check through the maze quietly and test.there was too much at stake to relax.i got a fantastic buzz out of getting a good system up and working properly first time.
    i still think of old russ who worked for me for years,a born again christian who would pick an awkward time to go bibical with me,just when he had the blowtorch warmed up and ready to blow in the joints.he knew i would not say anything to upset him for fear of ruining the work progress.however the clients if they were listening would always be highly amused grinning from ear to ear."jeasus luves you geoig and des no a fing he would not forgive"..he would say,,putting back his head and squinting out from under his gold rimmed glasses at me. " amen" i would say.
                                                   biff
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 10:35:56 PM by biff » Logged
guydewdney
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 10:17:45 PM »

getting my plumber to actually insulate ANYTHING was a nightmare. its 'useful heat' he kept saying - yeah - useful to the housemartins in the effing attic? useful to the spare, hardly used bedroom? useful to the room with the boiler in it?

when I suggested a bypass of the boiler (so when the wood burner was providing the heat it wasnt heating the heat exchanger of the boiler) I was told it was a waste of time. That is still in dispute....

but hes the only plumber round here who actually turns up....
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 10:27:10 PM »

Ha Haaa, Black magic my foot!.  Dark Ages I tell you, Truly the dark ages. ralph

Just fitted 1 new unvented hot water tank, one in the Gite, (got to keep biff happy with lashings of hot water), and the other is being installed as we speak.

And i just fitted new pressure release valve work to our tank in the cellar, plus a 3 bar pressure regulator as our pressure is 6 bar that's if Mr Flurry (farmer over the road) is not washing his milking parlour out.
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guydewdney
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 10:36:23 PM »

I run an unvented too - much to martin's chagrin Wink and the biggest shower head I could find... troll
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 10:44:27 PM »

guydewdney, that's the thing, the hot comes at you full pressure, so none of this piddling flow or power shower stuff, one just gets blasted.   extrahappy

I had better keep my comments to myself, sshh.     ralph
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 10:52:10 PM by clockmanFR » Logged

Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
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