Making water run uphill.

[numenius]

Renovating an off grid property.  There is no available water higher up than us for us to make use of gravity, and a borehole looks far too expensive. However, 12 metres below the house and 100 metres away we have access to a nice clean stream with no livestock or humans upstream (it rises in a forest and our new home is also in the forest)  I've checked with the Environment Agency and we can extract without a licence from the stream as long as it's less than 20 m3 per day - that's 4400 gallons. Well and truly more than enough.

 
We looked at first at pumping to a settling tank then pumping again through filters to a header tank to make use of gravity at the taps. However, as you may have seen elsewhere, we are off grid for electricity too so thats 2 pumps eating amps and also means putting a final bacteria filter on each tap as the water would be left standing in a loft tank before use (I know I can pipe direct to the loo without bacteria filtering, but to be honest it's looking just as easy to filter it all to the same standard using bacteria/virus filters that can be cleaned and reused that someone on this forum has told me about). I'm wondering if there is some way of actually doing this with 1 pump to keep power use down?

If  can draw water from the old well/spring instead (we've got to find it first as it's all overgrown/buried - but we know it was there in the 1880's and still used in the 1970s but had no success finding it so far) there should be little if any need for a settling tank as I can enlarge it to be it's own settling tank in effect (or "big hole in the ground" as I believe is the technical term) then pump direct and through the filters on demand without tanking if I can work out a way to trigger the pump when you turn a tap on (thats easy when there is positive pressure already in a system, but not so straightforward when the taps are above the level of the source, so if anything there is a negative gravity pressure away from the tap when you open it (though the system has to have a one-way valve in it t5o prevent accidental syphoning back to the well, which should minimise that backwards pressure when no pump is turned on).   If I can find a way around that then I can manage with just one pump in the system....
Any thoughts on how/if this could be done - so despite a negative pressure, on turning the taps on, or the hot water header tank ball valve operating, that triggering the pump?

[Heinz]

Two ideas.
1/ a ram pump fed from the burn, uses a lot of water to move a little at high pressure.
2/ simple water wheel with a spiral of MDPE pipe on the wheel. Water is picked up from the burn by the open end of the spiral and as the wheel turns the water ends up in the centre and goes through a rotating coupling to wherever you want it.
My system uses a spring feeding a tank underground. Water is (mains electric) pumped from this tank to a gravity feed tank in the attic, really usefull when the mains fails or I need the power off to work on something, can still flush the loo and make a cuppa 
Don't assume that you have a well just because an old map/plan says you do. A 'well' often seems to mean a source of water rather than a hole in the ground. My spring is a well on all the old maps.

H

[billi]

Hi

Perhaps a Ram Pump  that needs no electricity to pump ,   could  pump water uphill to your tank /reservoir

http://www.kansaswindpower.net/pumps,_ram.htm



I have  only one pump  pumping from a pond water through our ceramic ultra-filtration filter  to out taps  no header tank
something like this  , but that would mean , you have to install the pump near the stream  

http://www.compostadores.com/product/water-pumps/domestic-water-pump-hwa-1300f-al-ko

but not so straightforward when the taps are above the level of the source

As far as i know that is no issue

Regards Billi

Oh i see Heinz was faster than me  

[qeipl]

This has just occured to me and it may be a ridiculous idea but I thought I'd air it and see if anyone had tried it before....

Imagine a siphon pipe (say 25mm bore) running from a high part of the stream to a low part of the stream with the top of the bend in the pipe next to the storage tank at the house.

Somewhere near the top of the bend (before, at, or after the top?) is a reducer 'T' with a branch of smaller bore pipe (say 10mm) and a small electric pump.

After you've got the siphon to run (probably using a big pump on the lower end) would it be possible to pump off a trickle of water through the branch at the top or would this interrupt the flow of the siphon?

[numenius]

Billi,  how do you get it to switch itself on when you turn a tap on? I can't see any pressure sensing on it for that. Do you also use some sort of switched pressure vessel in the system somewhere for that?  I've seen a Draper pump refered to elsewhere which has a pressure vessel built itno it, but it's only a booster pump so would not draw up from the well/stream. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=19699 .

One additional issue is that the pump down at the well or stream needs to be water proof as the stream gets a lot bigger in spring or heavy rain, and in extreme years can get as far as the supposed well location which is only a few feet above the stream level, so a submersible pump is ideal, but for a no-tank system it's that automatic switching upon turning a tap (or the loo or the hot water header tank ball valve operating) which is the big issue.

A ram pump would be a brilliant solution and save our amps, but the location and set up rules one out I'm afraid. 

[camillitech]

This has just occured to me and it may be a ridiculous idea but I thought I'd air it and see if anyone had tried it before....

Imagine a siphon pipe (say 25mm bore) running from a high part of the stream to a low part of the stream with the top of the bend in the pipe next to the storage tank at the house.

Somewhere near the top of the bend (before, at, or after the top?) is a reducer 'T' with a branch of smaller bore pipe (say 10mm) and a small electric pump.

After you've got the siphon to run (probably using a big pump on the lower end) would it be possible to pump off a trickle of water through the branch at the top or would this interrupt the flow of the siphon?

Hi Malcolm,

a siphon will only work if the high point is less than 9m http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon or there abouts and Numenius is looking for at least 12m Both Justme and Rogeriko are off grid and use the same pump as Billi I think.

Cheers, Paul

[Norfolk]

Ram pump really sounds like a good solution. The principle is that they deliver water very slowly but achieve massive lift. Delivered into a holding tank that will overflow harmlessly. They run submerged and let out a reassuring regular thump thump. Hmmm, ram pump

[camillitech]

Billi,  how do you get it to switch itself on when you turn a tap on? I can't see any pressure sensing on it for that. Do you also use some sort of switched pressure vessel in the system somewhere for that?  I've seen a Draper pump refered to elsewhere which has a pressure vessel built itno it, but it's only a booster pump so would not draw up from the well/stream. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=19699 .

One additional issue is that the pump down at the well or stream needs to be water proof as the stream gets a lot bigger in spring or heavy rain, and in extreme years can get as far as the supposed well location which is only a few feet above the stream level, so a submersible pump is ideal, but for a no-tank system it's that automatic switching upon turning a tap (or the loo or the hot water header tank ball valve operating) which is the big issue.

A ram pump would be a brilliant solution and save our amps, but the location and set up rules one out I'm afraid. 

It looks like the diaphragm and pressure sensor are on top of Billi's link to me N, the spec also says it will draw from 9m so well above water level.

Personally I'd avoid pumps like the plague and would rather bring the water from higher up even if it means a mile away (yes I've done it  ) despite having beautiful well water only a meter or so lower than the house. As you point out every amp is precious, but then I don't have any neighbours to whine 

Good luck, Paul 

[billi]

Hi Numenius

The one in the link i supplied has an electronic  pressure sensing  control   and this tries to hold a constant pressure  say at 2.5 Bar
When the taps are closed the pressure in your waterpipes are at  about 3.5 bar   , once you open the tap the pressure drops to 2.5 bar   and then holds this pressure

I know this sort of pump from an other house ,  and to be honest i still have one like in your link , with a pressure vessel .
But  when i bought mine , i did not know  about these "Electronically controlled solution" , and would prefer  to have one , cause with the pressure-vessel  the the bar   varies  between 2-4 bar   and that never worked satisfying  with our shower ( hard to adjust temperature)

Perhaps better explained here   http://www.alko.com.au/garden-products/al-ko-pumps/hwa1001-household-pump/

I can recommend this make  , mine is fine since 5 years  and not too expensive , for off grid i would perhaps  stay away from the biggest one  , there is a 1000 Watt one 153 Euro  as well (still a lot  and the start up surge is hefty )  

I can supply a German shop link   for  a cheaper buy.....  

Regards Billi

[dhaslam]

I think that you will find that the electricity required to run a pump is  minimal.  You will need a pump  that can still give a reasonable  flow at 15 metres in order to slowly fill a tank. The pump would be  a  little specialized,  but  you would only need something like  100 watt  hours per day for a 500 litre  daily supply.    It would be wise to have a spare pump that can be easily fitted  and good  non blocking protection for the water  intake.  

You could consider  collecting  drinking water in containers from a  well if there is  one available in the area.   Where I live now  there is well water on tap  but the previous house was supplied with river water that wasn't very nice to drink.

A NewZealand link for hydraulic ram pumps,  they look like an expensive option.
 
http://williamsonrampump.co.nz/capacity.html

[billi]

the spec also says it will draw from 9m so well above water level.

Personally I'd avoid pumps like the plague

True Paul  , i would also prefer  not to have a pump , but my filter needs  pressure 

I could dig a well  further up our land  20 metes higher though  .... get the spade 

These bespoke pumps i saw failing  a few times  when they had to suck water up first  , so mine is below  water supply pond

Billi

[camillitech]

Right enough Billi we don't have enough pressure for filters but prefer the 'wholemeal organic' option, mind you I do have a stomach like a septic tank and our bathwater can be a little murky at times.



  

OK we've had the odd dead bird, mouse, and slug in the tanks but it doesn't seem to have done us or the generations that lived here before us any harm 

Cheers, Paul

[Justme]

Our system goes like this:-

1000w borehole pump to 1500L storage tank controlled via float switch (effective usable capacity 1000L)
storage tank to 300w booster pump fed by gravity
booster pump to one way valve then pressure switch then pressure vessel then pre filter followed by main filter.

I want to move the pressure vessel to the other side of the filters when we get a new one so that when the filters start to reduce flow it wont be so apparent when using less water than the pressure vessel can supply between pump boosts.

The borehole pump can pump over 2m3 for each kWh used. We use less than 1m3 per week.

Booster pump runs on about a 20% cycle when running the tap on full flow.

[rogeriko]

This is the cheap solution, don't forget these pumps will suck up about 8 meters before the pump so it dosn't have to be installed all the way down at the stream. Probably only uses 500w.

[billi]

our bathwater can be a little murky at times

  before or after yourself  

We have cows and cattle  as well slurry spread  from farmers  above  our land occasionally   ,   so though its better to have a filter