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Author Topic: observations and queries on combined ups and small inverter.  (Read 618 times)
biff
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« on: January 16, 2012, 03:48:12 PM »

we seem to have beamed our previous posts on this thread up into space,
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martin
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2012, 03:57:37 PM »

Oh lordy! - sadly it would appear that you've somehow done the equivalent of using a board rubber on a blackboard to what's stored on the server....... your previous post in this thread is now an awful lot of chalk dust! There is no way to retrieve it unfortunately - really sorry! Lips Sealed

About the only thing that might just work is if the computer you used is still fired up, just keep using the "back" button on your browser until you find the original, then highlight it all then "copy and paste"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:02:17 PM by martin » Logged

Unpaid volunteer administrator and moderator (not employed by Navitron) - Views expressed are my own - curmudgeonly babyboomer! - http://www.farmco.co.uk
biff
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2012, 04:09:14 PM »


front panels of the mustik and the double conversation job on the left.top right is my favourite 12 volt charger.very intelligent indeed.
         

 rear of mustik showing rating etc,

 a puzzle from china,it was supposed to be a sleep mode inverter which worked when someone switched on a load and switched itself off when no load was present,i had a few of these and they all caused massive frustration.however they had loads of goodies inside.
                                                 biff
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:48:39 PM by biff » Logged
biff
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 04:25:24 PM »



  rear of double conversation job showing rating, etc.
   
 sorry to everyone,
             we seem to have wiped out the origional thread so above are a few pics that would make sense if the origional thread was present,however i will return and try and make it appear more understandable. wackoteapot
                                                   biff
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:52:29 PM by biff » Logged
biff
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 07:14:20 PM »

having set up the turbine to charge into the 24 volt battery bank,i then decided to connect a mustik 600watt x 24 volt ups, i was a little unhappy with  this ups because it seem to eat the juice even before the load was on. the said mustik is a low frequency job with a big heavy duty iron core,very heavy for the size.
 so i whipped out the mustik and installed a 700watt double conversion job,quite light to lift no big heavy transformer inside.(just a little lucky bag effort) the double conversion job was dead,caps empty so i plumbed in an ordinary little 300watt modified sine wave inverter,,(top right on the first pic). i sent the live ac into the back of double conversion(still cannot remember the name of the bally fing) and this brough it back to life,after 15 mins or so i was able to turn off the small inverter because the big one could now run and cold start on its own.
   the small inverter was connected to a different 200ah sealed lead bank,meanwhile the double conversion job was connected to a 600ah forklift bank. i reconnected the small inverter,s ac outlet to the inlet on the double conversion ups and send the lot down the line to run the house.i had just set up a system of mixing voltages and different battery banks.
    the small modified sine wave inverter sent its ac lecky into the double conversion unit to be turned into dc and fed into the battery then  withdrawn and fed into the house in sine wave form,loads of 300watt or less does not bring the "battery in use" amber light on in the dash of the double conversion ups but loads over that do,so this might mean that the little inverter is actually supplying the energy to run the house on anything under 300watt.
  the above is guesswork on my behalf but it seems very likely that it could be possible.
 my apologies for wiping the other forums members posts, i have no idea how that happened,i did not even think it was possible,its ok to wipe my own but not nice to wipe others,so again my apologies folks.
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 07:19:01 PM »

AHH the twilight Zone,

Biff my original question was, why was your first UPS/Inverter drawing down the voltage and did you find a reason.?

Could have sworn i said that yesterday, biff have you patented that time machine of yours?
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biff
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 07:31:11 PM »

yes clockman,
             you did indeed ask that question but my answer would be still guesswork with not an ounce of data to back it up, the low frequency inverter is supposed to use more energy on standby normally but hardly as much as it was showing without load so maybe there was an internal fault. it worked perfect and had loads of power,instant start from cold and built to a higher standard that the normal apcs,,very neat inside with great big heavy cables and bits for its size.perhaps its down to the design,?nope did not patent any thing (too expensive) and you are free to use if you wish. angel angel
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 07:35:25 PM by biff » Logged
clockmanFR
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 07:40:31 PM »

biff, bottom left on your string, there is a button that says, "Remove Topic". hysteria hysteria hysteria
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billi
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 07:46:09 PM »

Biff is it: one inverter with battery  feeding another  inverter/charger  with its own battery  story Huh?

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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
biff
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 08:03:57 PM »

yes billi,thats it basically,
                a small 300watt modified sinewave,sending its ac into a double conversion ups, they each have seperate batteries banks but can unite their energies. the banks can be different voltages also. seems like an ideal way to mix batteries and voltages,  ?
                                                                                                                                     biff
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billi
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 08:45:45 PM »

Quote
seems like an ideal way to mix batteries and voltages,  ?

I know  whistlie ,

But  , it is  experimental   and not for kids under 12  ....

I used to charge my  24  volt home Battery  sometimes ,    with my  12 Volt Car battery setup ( 500 ah)  and its on board 12 volt  inverter  ,  after work  at home

The thing is (in my set-up anyhow )   , there is a "Master and a Slave "  and the poorer quality of power should be the slave  

In many/most   cases , like Generators  connected to off grid inverter/chargers, the generator becomes the Master and the true sinewave Off Grid inverter  the Slave

So i generally think   the poorer quality power source should be "Slave "


I tested now 3 AC power supplying   my Inverter/charger  ( basically just connected the additional AC supply into a house socket )   and they seemed to work better this way , instead of hooking them to the designed AC input of my AC inverter charger

 wackoold  I know , who will ever understand me  fingers crossed!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 08:47:46 PM by billi » Logged

Guinness no Grid comes near

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
biff
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 09:57:33 PM »

hi billi,
      i would say that you know a lot more about lecky than i do.all i have done is plug a ups into a small inverter instead of the mains and run the pair on two seperate battery banks.i would think that the the result should show the combined energy of the pair.it should be safe enough so long as they dont overheat or go on fire,so they will have to be monitored carefully. the important bit is the double conversion in the ups (switch charger) which dumps everything into the batteries and draws it out in sine wave.i believe that this action prevents any internal upset but time will tell that,or someone with the actual experience of double conversion ups,s.
                                                                                     biff
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 08:25:34 AM »

I'm no expert on UPSs, but I've picked up a bit over the years - sometimes learning the expensive way (I've got 1/4 ton of dead 12V VRLA batteries to play with now - the boss isn't happy even though I did say from the outset we need to improve the cooling as well fume) That and a converter module on the 12kVA UPS going tits-up as well, so we don't even get power conditioning - but that's a different story.
I have the offer of a free 5kVA unit from my old place - if I had room to store it or a use for it.

The first thing I'd suggest checking is whether your larger UPS does actually charge/float the battery from it's input. I'd assumed the DC bus in ours at work was directly connected to the battery but it isn't - there's a separate DC bus internally which is separate from the battery bus. Battery charging is done by a separate module in the power converter blocks, and I think there is a DC-DC converter between battery and internal DC bus. Yes, it sounds more complicated than it needs to be Huh

Hmm, reading that back, it doesn't sound as clear as when I wrote it - but I can't think how to express it better. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's necessarily as simple as an AC-DC conversion to the battery bus, a DC-AC conversion off the battery bus, and the load will be supplied by a combination of battery and whatever the input will provide.
That detail is, of course, going to be manufacturer/model specific, so (especially for smaller units) it may be that the internal DC bus is directly connected to the batteries.


The biggest issue is that an online UPS has significant losses all the time. You are doing an AC-DC conversion followed by a DC-AC conversion, both with losses. Overall I think a decent unit should be rated to something in the high 90s % efficient, but it's still going to give you a permanent energy loss. Of course, if you're getting "free" energy then this may well be an acceptable tradeoff - it does give one advantage in that you always get "clean" power out of it regardless of what's going in.

An off-line or line-interactive UPS will have less losses when passing power through - it just sits there watching the power, and the only losses should be for battery charging and it's own power consumption. The downside is that it doesn't clean up the supply current much (they tend to have some filtering, but that's it) as they just pass the AC supply through to the outlet when not running on battery.


But back to your setup. I think you would be correct to say that your load will run from the 300W inverter when it is low enough. The UPS will see a "normal" supply and pass it through (with the aforementioned double conversion). When load increases enough, the inverter will cut out and the UPS will pick up the load - I doubt if there will be any load sharing.
What I suspect will happen is that as soon as the UPS kicks in, the inverter will recover, the UPS will switch back to AC, the inverter will collapse, and so it will cycle. This is one area where the double conversion will be very good - a line-interactive or offline UPS will be clicking like mad as it switches the load between AC and battery, and I hate to think what the load will get fed with.
I have some experience with this.

One of our customers had a scheduled power cut a while ago for some utility engineering works. We were supposed to shift their data and some hosting to our server room so their customers could continue using the online services. Unfortunately that didn't work out, and so "plan C" got invoked - I headed up there with my little petrol genny and an extension lead. Trouble was, the load was probably 80+% of the genny capacity, and things were already on battery when I got there. I fired up the genny, the UPS waited for the supply to settle, then switched over to "mains". The genny output drooped as the load was dumped on it, and so the UPS switched back to battery - repeating each time the genny recovered, I gate to think what got fed to the equipment. Luckily setting the UPS to be less sensitive was enough and we got the whole IT setup running off my genny all day. I was thinking we'd have to shut down several servers (possibly all of them) to reduce load, and then bring them back up one at a time once we'd got the genny online.


From an efficiency and load sharing POV, I think a better arrangement would be a DC-DC converter to transfer power from one battery bank to the other, then an inverter off the second bank. Under light load, the second battery bank will just float and your power path will be 1st battery -> DC-DC -> Inverter -> load. Assuming your DC-DC converter is power limited rather than just trips, under higher load you would indeed share batteries - the inverter drawing from both the DC-DC converter and the second battery. The downside of course is that you are less likely to find the equipment lying around free (or nearly so).
The fundamental problem using old UPSs is that they are designed for "one or t'other" and don't have a facility to share a limited AC supply with battery.

Better still would be running everything off one voltage so you can parallel the batteries - then you just have the one DC-AC conversion.

Hope those rambling make some sense Roll Eyes
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Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 09:27:23 AM »

hi billi,
      i would say that you know a lot more about lecky than i do.all i have done is plug a ups into a small inverter instead of the mains and run the pair on two seperate battery banks.i would think that the the result should show the combined energy of the pair.it should be safe enough so long as they dont overheat or go on fire,so they will have to be monitored carefully. the important bit is the double conversion in the ups (switch charger) which dumps everything into the batteries and draws it out in sine wave.i believe that this action prevents any internal upset but time will tell that,or someone with the actual experience of double conversion ups,s.
                                                                                     biff

So what you've got is.....
Batteries - 300W inverter o/p mod sine wave - 700W double conv UPS with batts and o/p clean sine wave to load.

First thing to say is the double conv UPS doesn't "dumps everything into the batteries and draws it out in sine wave".
A double conv UPS is essentially made up of 3 things....
AC to DC converter.  Connected to this in PARALLEL is a battery bank and an inverter.
The o/p of the AC to DC conv doesn't go in to the batts then out to the inverter.
When the AC to DC conv is powered from mains, then the batts and inverter are in parallel and independent of each other.
Only when the mains fails and AC to DC conv is effectively off, then the inverter draws from the batts.

Here is an example.....
Imagine you had a car battery charger.  That's your AC to DC converter.
Connected to that is an old car batt and in PARALLEL an inverter (12Vdc to 240VAC)
Essentially that is a double conversion UPS.
Say the car batt was drawing 5 amp and the inverter was drawing 10 amps (120W load) then the car batt charger must o/p 15 amps DC.
The inverter is not drawing any current from the batt until the mains fails and the charger is off.

So going back to your set-up....

If your load was say 200 watts, then power is being drawn from the first set of batts by the 300W inverter, this then goes through the 700W double conv UPS.  No power is being drawn from the double conv set of batts.  This is inefficient!  Smiley  Apart from the 200W load, you have inefficiencies involved in both UPSs and also the double conv UPS is charging its batts.

If your load was above 300 watts then the first UPS should sense overload and switch off.  In which case the double conv UPS will draw from its batts to power the load.

Your double conv UPS is a Merlin Gerin (MGE) Pulsar UPS.  These don't have normal cold start.
They only cold start IF they have been powered by mains recently.  It is not failed caps.
And sometimes they need to be connected to mains for a while before they work.

Regards
Andy the UPS, Inverter & Battery Man
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biff
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 11:12:15 AM »

billi,simon and andy,
                    thank you all for your help.it will take me a while to digest this but all your points are understandable. there seem to be an advantage in such a setup.
 andy, i have had a few of these little double conversion pulsars and they have all been exellent cold starters,much better than the apc 1500va ups,more reliable. this occasion would have been the first time one refused to cold start but then again it has been laid up for over a year in not too dry circumstances but i am kind of lucky like that.
 in the first picture on the top right hand side,is a 12 volt 12 amp intelligent battery charger.this would be among one of the smartest pieces of  design on the market. it will accept most ac around 200-240volts and charge batteries really quick,the charging unit is obviously the modern switch charger.it is as light as a feather and very easy carried.it has 3 orange lights giving the state of the battery ,a cut out and a switch to slow to 6amps for slow charging.i have a few of these and they have been in constant use for over 4 years now,an exellent buy around £30.00.
  i have no connection with the makers but just saying that they are an exellent piece of kit.
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