navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
UK's most popular Renewable Energy Forum May 25, 2012, 03:48:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: UPDATE ON DECC APPLICATION FOR LEAVE TO APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT | Yingli Green Energy's PV Module Ranks No.2 in TUV Rheinland Energy Yield Test | Navitron Solar Showers at Glastonbury for Year 5!
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Stop this energy smart meter 'fiasco', UK.gov urged  (Read 927 times)
clockmanFR
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 775



« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 12:58:45 PM »

did try that, but without the signal the meter defulted back to premium rate.
Logged

Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
clockmanFR
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 775



« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 01:02:50 PM »

If i can find the sub station and the carrier wave then maybe i could replicate it, ohh theres a thought!  Grin
Logged

Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
Baz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1386


« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 01:05:43 PM »

mmm the radio is going to have a problem getting through 2 ft of granite. I wonder if they have remote antennas.
I can see the headlines in the uk "shock horror pensioners left to die of cold when their night storage didn't come on".
An internet connection is another control route but there has been no approach by anyone for a background circuit on modems.
Logged
SimonHobson
Guest
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 01:19:06 PM »

... but "when some forecasts suggest we may have a supply deficit" -thats got to be rubbish.
Why ?
It is a completely factual statement that some forecasts do indeed show a shortfall between supply and demand, starting in about 5 years. If you follow the link to the first article (on TheRegister) you'll see a graph attributed to DECC showing just such a shortfall. I have emailed the author and asked if he has a reference to the source of that since I can't see it in the 4th Carbon Report linked to.

There is no question that some forecasts show a shortfall. The question is, are these forecasts more, or less, credible than those showing no shortfall ?

It's also not open to question that one of the reasons for the "kill switch" is to allow for remote disconnection as a form of load management - in a more flexible way than throwing the switch for a whole area at the substation. Not the only reason, but certainly one reason.

And it seems I had a date wrong in my mind. The NAO report gives the end date for the Smart Meter rollout as 2019 - ie 15 years away. They aren't going to have a significant effect on/ability to control demand in 5 years time.



Oh yes, on our current "Economy 7" tariffs. Radio controlled switches are quite common in this country too - we have several of them down in the meter room of the office block where I work. AIUI, the contracts generally say you'll get 7 hours of cheap rate during a certain window, but it's not necessarily at a fixed time, or in one chunk. Up in the office, the DB has a contactor controlled from the radio switch that is used to turn on the night storage heaters.
Logged
Richard Owen
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1995


Navitron PV Installer


« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 03:25:34 PM »


The NAO report gives the end date for the Smart Meter rollout as 2019 - ie 15 years away.


7 years away?
Logged

44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
SimonHobson
Guest
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 03:29:02 PM »

7 years away?
Doh Huh  I think you can guess how stimulating work is today Roll Eyes

Hard to see how the rollout's going to be complete in that time.
Logged
brackwell
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 735


« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 05:17:05 PM »

Simon,

The furthest i could get was that the DECC were quoting from the Redpoint EMR baseline simulation.
I did not mean to suggest that there are no forecasters -just that what they are forcasting is--.  It is my experience that you can get someone to forecast anything you want and the more desperate they are for publicity or money...  Money corrupts.

Most scenarios are based on some kind of progression of our present position and makes a poor job of predicting cause and effect/supply and demand. You only need to look at PV and FITS.

As cost of elec increases mankind will adapt eg fit LED bulbs which will have come down in price because production volumes and competition increase.   More people will use the train if petrol goes up.  etc etc.

Ken
Logged
wookey
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2672


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 05:32:58 PM »

Quote
The NAO report gives the end date for the Smart Meter rollout as 2019 - ie 15^H^H 7 years away. They aren't going to have a significant effect on/ability to control demand in 5 years time.

Even ignoring the poor arithmetic, they could still have a significant effect if the rollout is managed such that you put them in problematic areas first. I assume there are places where the grid is under greater strain than others, and installing meters in those places first may well give you most of the control you need well before all 100% are fitted. It's quite possible that 30% of meters done, but inthe right places is all that's needed. I don't know, but it seems eminently plausible.
Logged

Wookey
SimonHobson
Guest
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 08:15:40 AM »

Even ignoring the poor arithmetic, they could still have a significant effect if the rollout is managed such that you put them in problematic areas first. I assume there are places where the grid is under greater strain than others, and installing meters in those places first may well give you most of the control you need well before all 100% are fitted. It's quite possible that 30% of meters done, but inthe right places is all that's needed. I don't know, but it seems eminently plausible.
I can see two problems with such a targeted approach - one practical, one political.

The political one is this - what's the likely effect if only certain areas are affected by rationing*, while others aren't ?
* Whether that's "strong financial incentives" to change usage, or actual disconnects to cut demand.
My feeling is that if you start doing that sort of thing, those affected by higher peak rates and/or disconnects are going to be "quite unhappy" when they know that 2/3 of the country aren't sharing their pain.

The practical one is, it's going to need a lot of people to swap all these meters. It makes sense to have them spread all around so they can mostly work local to their home. This means having a spread out rollout - ie one person does an area over a longer period, rather than drafting in 10 to do it quickly but having to put them up in lodgings. I think that once you have to be putting up large numbers of people in accommodation then the costs will go up somewhat.

Added to that, there is the fundamental issue that a lot of the gains won't come until attached loads within the house are "connected". That means having appliances etc able to respond to the information the meter provides. They aren't going to appear on the market in huge numbers until smart meters are ubiquitous, and they'll only get installed as part of a normal replacement - eg I'm not going to go out and spend £300 on a new fridge just to save maybe a fiver** a year off my leccy bill, and I'm hoping the fridge I've just bought will last long past the end of the planned smart meter rollout.
** Figure plucked from air, but if government are only talking of saving £23/yr total per household then I think a smart fridge is probably not going to save much at all.


Of course, government could mandate certain stuff - for instance it would make sense to mandate that all new appliances after a certain date had to be "connectable". Manufacturers might see it as an opportunity to charge a premium on the price (they always seem to, and in any case they'll have additional development and support costs to cover), and buyers will see it as being "shafted again" by "green taxes".

My feeling is that you'll find a small proportion will go out and do it anyway, the majority will sigh at what they consider yet another excuse to have their wallets emptied. I'm afraid that in a large part of the population there is this perception that it (climate change, renewables, etc and all that goes with it) is all a big excuse to add taxes.
Logged
renewablejohn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1847



« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 08:57:03 AM »

The point with smart meters is the control of demand. The main routes proposed to achieve this is the European solution of using micro CHP plants which the UK have discounted. (Outlined in National Grid report that Ken referenced but I cannot find) Instead we will control demand using ground source heat pumps and electric cars.

http://www.ricardo.com/Documents/Downloads/White%20Paper/Plug%20In%20Vehicle%20of%20Future/Bucks%20for%20balancing%20-%20can%20plug-in%20vehicles%20of%20the%20future%20extract%20cash%20–%20and%20carbon%20–%20from%20the%20power%20grid.pdf

A classic case of support for a nuclear power generation programme which is being ignored by the rest of europe.
Logged
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 09:49:39 AM »

I've recently mentioned this, but can't remember where I found it, so off memory:

In America, California I believe, they can offer flexible pricing that reflects demand, for a lower tariff some houses are trialling a system that shuts down A/C for up to 20mins per hr when demand is high. I think, from memory, that nobody has found this a problem yet.

Mart.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!