3 pm Tues afternoon, Radio 4

[martin]

"Home Planet" - usually worth a listen (although you may get homicidal at some of Phillip Stott's ideas - I do!)

[martin]

WELL worth a listen  - Phillio Stott can live a little longer, he actually said in words of one syllable "there's no such thing as a carbon-zero house".........
Some dozey woman however was trying to say that solar hot water wouldn't pay back during it's lifetime.............
(BBC replay)

[SteveH]

Audio Link

Home Page

[martin]

this is the dozey article that said solar hot water would never pay back........... http://www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/planning/people/profiles/y_rydin.htm

[rhys]

this is the dozey article that said solar hot water would never pay back........... http://www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/planning/people/profiles/y_rydin.htm

Well I think thats a bit unfair. What she said needed to be listened to in context.
She advocated community scale renewables. Because whiltst it's true that is very difficult to acheive an off grid "zero carbon house" it may just be possible to get close to zero carbon communities.
She went on to say that as technologies neither PV nor Solar HW currently paid back in their lifetime. They alone were not the answer.
That given the current costs is very often true.
A £3500 Solar HW system IS at best difficult to justify. Which is why I have a much cheaper self installed Navitron System which does have a payback period - still a fairly long one though.
She was saying that this was a barrier to take up, for most people, not that these systems were not worthwhile, nor that they did not payback their embodied energy.
She went on to say that although Solar HW was a mature technology PV was not and costs here would come down.
I don't think she was saying we should not be doing Solar, to save the planet, only that in terms of current fuel prices take up would NOT happen without some political or personal committment or a hardening of building regulations.
I though the bits about the existing housing stock were very interesting, but half the panel appeared not to have even read the briefing paper, which is on the programme web site, and which deals very well with the issue of "embodied energy", and "energy in use" of new build and renovated housing.
Thanks for the media posting Martin it was a good programme.

[martin]

I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but as I recollect it, her comments came along in response to the question "why don't all new houses have solar as a matter of course........." - if we're talking the cost to a developer of a bit of redesigning, a different tank, a solar hot water panel, pump and controller, bought in bulk, we're talking diddly-squat!
If we then put it in the context of projected energy price rises/availability/Mr Putin's foot on the pipe, I agree with the poser of the question "why isn't it obligatory on all new builds?"
Mutter mutter, why aren't passiv hauses obligatory...........mutter mutter!

[rhys]

I do give her the benefit of the doubt because I think she was saying they wouldn't do it,without regulation, just on Simple payback.
Ive just looked at my calculations Last year.
Zero Vat on kit would make a huge difference to payback as would increasing oil prices.
Viability of Solar Panel                           
Energy Prices based on John Willoughby Fuel PriceGuides                           
Hot water Energy Requirement based on SAP Average Occupancy Usage                     5228      
         p/kWh         £         
At time of installation      50%   3.63      2614   94.8882         Oil Heating
At time of installation      50%   3.44      2614   89.9216         Gas

Simple Payback Oil               Simple Payback Gas            
Cost of Installation                           
£         Years       £         Years   
4500   95      47      4500   90      50   
4000   95      42      4000   90      44   
3500   95      37      3500   90      39   
3000   95      32      3000   90      33   
2500   95      26      2500   90      28   
2000   95      21      2000   90      22   

I think I will re run these figure at to days Oil Prices with NO VAT my rant

Here's my figures at todays Oil Prices
Viability of Solar Panel At todays prices NO VAT                  
Energy Prices based Rhys' Bills John W Guide not updated                  
Hot water Energy Requirement based on SAP Average Occupancy Usage                  
         p/kWh         £
         5      5228   261.4
      50% Solar         2614   130.7

Simple Payback Oil                  
Cost of Installation - VAT            If NO Vat   With VAT   
Inc VAT   Ex VAT         Years    Years   
4500   3830   131      29   34   
4000   3404   131      26   31   
3500   2979   131      23   27   
3000   2553   131      19   23   
2500   2128   131      16   19   
2000   1702   131      13   15   


One or Two Oil Price Rises, 
Rip off's Outlawed,
Only Navitron Kit Installed by Navitron Approved Installers,
and 15 year insurance backed guarantee. Then there wont be free south facing roof without a set of tubes.

[Bargeman]

Hello Rhys,

VAT on installations of solar thermal installations, including ancilliary equipment, is already chargeable at 5% only. If your installer is charging you at 17.5% then they may be making a nice little extra, since they will only be required to forward 5% of the charge to HMRC. Zero rating would be better and would improve the payback, but perhaps not by as much presented in your analysis.

regards

[wookey]

But only for professional installers, right? If we DIY, not only do we not qualify for grants, we don't get the VAT discounts either. (My personal rant - I am continually disgusted by the anti-DIY legal and financial framework produced by this Govt.).

[ajstoneservices]

Some local authorities, Fenland is one will give small grants (£150.00p) for Diy installations.


Tony

[Bob]

Wookey,

Your personal rant applies to Ireland too.  Alternative and DIY often go together.  I could not agree more with your sentiments

[Bargeman]

Hello,

Quite right, only 5% for installations by VAT registered businesses. That seemed to be the target of Rhys's posting. I guess that if solar thermal is ever to become a standard application in UK residential sector, then DIY installations will be a relatively small proportion of the total installation base.

regards

[David]

I do think that government is wrong to exclude DIY installations from grants and VAT reductions. These schemes are claimed not to be for supporting the industry, I have heard a senior official say so, but this is precisely what they do. I'm not convinced that this is simply due to government incompetence.

Simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something. If it was very few roads would be built as, in the absence of an income stream from the road, their simple payback period is inflinite.

DIY solar water heating has now got to the stage where it has a reasonable simple payback period. "Professionally" installed systems will take longer to get to that stage, but that does not mean they are worthless because they are worth doing for other reasons.

Solar PV systems still have extremely long payback periods, but they are still worth doing for those who consider a wider range of factors than money.

[Phil]

If people are so interested in this magical term 'payback time'  they should be Investing in Nucular power Stations

[dhaslam]

The worst situation in Ireland is for air to  water heat pumps.   It is possible to buy one and just connect it yourself in place of an oiil boiler but the grant is only paid if a registered installer does it.  THe installers just add the grant onto the amount they charge.