Solar Heated Water for Washing Machines with a Cold Feed only.

[Ian]

I feel a ramble / rant coming on….I think it is going to be a long one……

This thread so far demonstrates admirably the general male trait of fixing an apparently obvious problem with what appears to be an apparently obvious solution. What is more, the kind of person attracted to board membership here tends to the “anorak” type – and types like us tend to look for “technical” bolt-on solutions.

We want to be able to use our solar heated water in our washing machines rather than use electricity to heat cold water and hence be kinder to the environment, save money, etc….

Can I suggest that the problem be turned on its head ? Why use any hot water at all in the process ?

Around 10 years in a Global company in the detergent industry has enlightening me to see how the rest of the World does their washing.

Where energy has been historically cheap and clothes were essentially cotton and white and fancy designs less common, (say the European communist block) then nearly all washing was boiled. Where energy was expensive or not available (say Africa, India), then no hot water was used. As more designer fashions and man made materials have come on the scene, then the temperatures used for washing have reduced. Australia has generally never used hot water for washing clothes and most washing machines there are cold fill only (unless they are European imported designs).

There are many things humans do that are really not logical and once into a habit we cannot be persuaded to change them – even if all the logic indicates that we should. Looking at British tendencies, most people still vote for the political party that their father voted for (although it is changing); most people use the brand of butter / margarine that their mother used to use; most people use the same brand of toothpaste that was used in the childhood home; drink the same brand of tea; and most people use the brand of detergent powder and method of washing that their mother used.

It is ingrained into us Brits that we need to use at least some hot water in our washing machines when in fact, modern detergents (particularly the enzymes, optical brighteners, and modern bleaches) can handle ambient temperature washes (often BETTER) than elevated temperatures. It is a step too far for the recognised detergent brand owners in this country to recommend ambient temperature washing as it just would not be credible (we all instinctively, and incorrectly, KNOW that you get a better wash when we heat the water) – and the brand owners are afraid of losing customers to brands using more “comforting” statements of using heated water.

So if the British public cannot be persuaded to change to ambient temperature washing in one single hit, then the industry goes about it in a measured slowly – slowly evolutionary process. The recommended temperatures are gradually reducing (apparently due to “new technology” which was invented years ago but the public was not ready for it) and, in time, the recommendation will be ambient temperatures.

Brits are very stubborn when it comes to change and many other countries using modern washing machines are very much ahead of us in the evolutionary process of reduced washing temperatures. Washing machine manufacturers know all this.

Often the same washing machine is produced in a factory outside the country of sale and often the same machine is “badged” for 10 or more different brands. Whilst the UK is a good sized market, it is not a driver of the market on its own – so we get what others want in our washing machines at budget and standard prices and only see UK specific machines at elevated prices.

Another human trait is to deliver against what is measured or what is rewarded. Washing machine manufactures work this way too. They are constantly being measured and rewarded (through recommendations and standardised testing) against water consumption, time to wash, and energy use.

Washing machine manufacturers want to maximise the production runs of a model and this means focussing on fast cycles and low water consumption if they want to sell to the overall market. Using cold water which they then heat internally by electricity does count against them with regard to energy consumption and cycle times but the other measures are perceived to be more important and also allow the manufacturer to have a lower component count and increase reliability.

So the bottom line is that you should not expect a washing machine manufacturer to develop a low cost machine to handle solar heated water for the UK market any time soon. It would be a dinosaur.

If you want to save the environment and save energy too, the simplest way is to use your existing machine with a good brand of detergent and use a low temperature cycle. Save your solar heated water for other things.

Rant / ramble over…..

Regards,
Ian

[lightfoot]

Very interesting Ian,

As you've brought up the subject of washing powder, I guess the other issue is the direct environmental impact of cleaning products, especially petrochemical based products.  For years we've only ever used Ecover products etc and I dare say other members of this forum do too. http://www.ecover.com/gb/en/environmental+harm.htm
They can be a bit dearer but we feel this is but a small price to pay, they do seem to be very good products and a good option if your on a septic tank etc.  We especially like the fact that you can get refills (in some outlets) which also cut's down on packaging.  It would be interesting to hear other peoples views on this.


Lightfoot.

[odbob]

Ian, if it is true that ambient temperatures will suffice and I have no reason to doubt your very interesting article, then I am sure that there is a very large portion of the British population who would be willing to accept the change almost overnight , however, there is an obvious concern which would have to be properly answered first :-

Assuming that the washed clothes really do appear as clean as if washed at the higher temperatures, what about actual cleanliness, ie bacterial destruction ?

[lightfoot]

Yes odbob, that's a good point and was a issue my Mrs just brought up.  She says she likes to use a 60 degC wash for the likes of towels, sheet's........and my socks 

Lightfoot.

[jude]

I have just discovered that they still make lightweight twin tub machines without heaters - they fill from the hot and cold taps and empty into the sink via a hose. Ideal for summer use for those with solar heated water, and easy to reuse the grey water on the garden.

http://www.mobility-direct.co.uk/product.asp?pid=124&scid=51

[Bob]

Ian

I have been trying to convince the females in my family of that for years!

[SteveH]

 odbod, lightfoot & list,

 I think this may be another of these cultural expectation questions along the same line that Ian took-up about our need to use heated water to wash clothes in.

 I'm not a micro biologist but I suspect the temperature of most washes at about 40°C is ideal for most bacteria... Who I think are the source for the enzymes used in biological powders in the first place... unless you boil something you are still going to have bacteria... boiling nappies is a good move, but everything else would be taking things too far...

 Think you have to draw a distinction between "Looks clean", done with additives to the detergent to enhance colour, or whiteness... & the "Surgical clean", that can only be done by protracted boiling under pressure...

 In view of the increase in worries about reduced resistance to common pathagens in the children of so called  first world countries & the media hype that goes with cleaning products that unnecessarily leave your house "Surgical clean"... would it not be better to stand back a little & realise your reactions may be couched in the words of the media men who sell you there product, based on instilling fear for yourself & family's survival, & not truly rationally well reasoned...?

 We in Wales & in ireland too I suspect have the added advantage of natures final rinse... Allways rains when you have just hung the washing out to dry...

[odbob]

Steve, most nasties are killed off at 60 deg C hence the reason for domestic hot water control at 60 deg C, I would imagine a 60 deg wash does same thing ?. We also have "experts" telling us that you should iron clothes to kill off various nasties.

To repeat, if the experts assure us that cold wash is OK then there are many folk who would consider this way forward.

My wife's just noticed this thread and asks the question, which washing powder melts at ambient, we certainly haven't found one that even melts at 40 deg C ?

[lightfoot]

odbob, maybe give this a go  http://www.ecover.com/gb/en/Products/Laundry/20050711+LQW+UK.htm


lightfoot.

[SteveH]

 odbod...I'm still worried by this concept of "Nasties"... we co-evolved with these pathogens & as long as we have contact with them at a young enough age to develop our own natural resistance, the vast majority will do us no harm at all, as I was trying to say above. Should we not be able to develop resistance we go to the doctor... If washing your hands in warm soapy water is good enough for prepairing food then thinking you need sterile cloths is either missguided or bordering on the obsessive... If it's Nappies boil them, everything else is washed to remove smells & grease & dirt...

  If it's Biological detergent & you use 60°C your killing the enzymes that do the majority of the cleaning... As to the "caking" that happens with a lot of powders this could be addressed by reducing the amount of fillers added during manufacture... Makes me laugh when the makers proudly proclaim their "New" powder is concentrated & all they have done is remove the bulking agents, saving themselves the cost of this & the additional packaging cost for the bulkier old style powder. They then add additional money on for the concept of "New"... The worse bit is when we believe it all... Not exactly "Smoke & Mirrors"

 Another reason for caking might be the relatively lower volume of water used in newer machines... maybe there is something to be said for liquid washing products... as long as we don't get charged extra for that too...

 Might be worth mentioning at this point that although fabric conditioners make towels nice & soft it also drastically reduce there absorption abilities... My partner still prefers Soft fluffy water resistant towels, despite me pointing this out to her on more than one occasion... I suspect this is another example of the cultural expectations we have grown to believe in... I tried an experiment by replacing the conditioner with an egg cup full of Sunflower oil with a dash of Lavender oil & it gave the same fragrent fluffy softness... Still not recommended if you preffer your towels absorbant...

 Leaver Bros & there ilk have a lot to answer for including creating that atrocious padding they put either side of there adverts...


 

[lightfoot]

Hi Steve,

I tend to agree that some people have a unhealthy obsession for 'killing 99% of all known germs and I feel a bit of dirt never hurt anybody, however I can still see Mrs LF's point of using a higher temp wash for some items like towels etc, especially when using a non-bio product.

......out of interest, do you have a background associated with the laundry/dry cleaning industry etc as you seem quite knowledgeable in the subject ?

Lightfoot.

[heatherw]

My wife's just noticed this thread and asks the question, which washing powder melts at ambient, we certainly haven't found one that even melts at 40 deg C ?

Why don't you use liquid?
Or I suppose you could predissolve powder in warmer water and then use it as liquid.

[SteveH]

 lightfoot

 Had more than a few nights out & in with my good friend... He was an Industrial Chemist... Who hated his job...

 

[Phil]

Thanks Jude you have just found our next washing machine 

http://www.mobility-direct.co.uk/product.asp?pid=124&scid=51

                   

[wookey]

Ian, if ambient temp washing works fine, and you predect no solar-friendly machines inthe future, then shouldn't that mean we will get heater-free machines soon? And as a corollary, that we 'ahead of the curve' types should just be working out how to nobble our heaters (such that the machine continues to operate)? Or hassling manufactureres about their ambient-temp machines?

That's fine by me. But perhaps by ambient you mean 'australian ambient' (their mains water can be 25C in the summer) and in fact it doesn't work well at a wintry british 5C? How hard is it to nobble the heater?