"Green Britain Gears Up for Climate Change Battle"

[dan_aka_jack]

If diesel or hydro backup is not available, then perhaps we should have some other forms of distributed energy storage.

1. Batteries - could be in the form a of a stationary system or even an electric vehicle.  Having it recharged cheaply or free when the wind blows could be an incentive, but remember that those who supply power to the nation are doing it for profit, not convenience or charitable reasons.
2. Pumped storage - 1 hour of UK baseload power usage could raise a cubic kilometer of water through a height of about 12 to 14 metres.
3.  Electrolyse water or sea water to make hydrogen and other useful chemicals.
4.  Electric storage heating and immersion heaters under National Grid control
5.  Millions of washing machines and dishwashers that can be powered up remotely under the control of the National Grid.

Sounds like a great idea.  How would the grid control the washing machines and dishwashers?  Would it be sufficient for the appliances to just listen to the current frequency of the mains supply and turn on at a particular threshold (like 50.2Hz or something) or would the grid need to send out another type of signal (comms-over-mains or maybe an RF signal?)?  I assume the latter would be necessary.

[Ted]

Ken,

have a look at Vanadium Redox Batteries. Tasmania implemented one and their grid contribution from wind went up to about 40% (if I remember).

I'm expecting you to be the first person to construct a DIY model that we can all copy - so roll your sleeves up.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

[KenB]

Ted,

Good suggestion - my Irish mate Tim already said that the Irish power co's were looking at Vanadium redox, as a way of balancing their wind power contribution.

Jack,  on my other post,  here's a link to a live grid frequency meter

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#

Imagine smart devices that measure the frequency at their power plug and decide whether to take power from the grid or return power to the grid.

Possibly some battery powered equipment which only chooses to charge when the frequency is high or immersion heaters and fridges that only turn on when greater than 50Hz.

How much of these smart devices would you need per household - probably about 3kWh,I'm guessing.

You could adapt a normal UPS system to have this smart function, and use it to run any appliances that are tolerant of when they take power.  When demand is high, it feeds back to the grid.

Add a broadband or telephone or MSF wireless control signal linked back to National Grid, and you could collectively  (10 million households) look like a big storage system.

With this sort of technology you could iron out the peaks and troughs of consumption from the grid getting it to run at a more constant 45 GW say, which would allow the 15 GW spare capacity for wind power contributions.

I know this is an over simplified view, but if anyone offered me power at 2.5p /kW as a favour for the National Grid and allow more renewables  - I would certainly make full use of it.



Ken

[KenB]

Jack, List,

We often hear about pensioners living in cold poorly heated houses, simply because they cannot afford the electricity to heat them adequately during the day.

A simple 2kW electric storage heater fitted with a tamperproof dynamic demand controller could make the difference between pink pensioners and blue ones. 

The heater would provide background heating for a single room, and could be permanently plugged into a standard 13A outlet.

For agreeing to host such an appliance, the pensioners would be allowed power at 75% off.

The dynamic demand controller could be built for a couple of quid and connected to a standard storage heater - this would turn what is otherwise a wasteful, incontrollable heatsource, into one that offered real savings and benefit to the user, the electricity supplier and opened up the grid for more renewables.

This device would also offset diesel standby capacity and reduce natural gas spent on heating.  For those suffering fuel poverty , it is better to keep one room cosy than the whole house cold.


Ken

[lightfoot]

...sounds like it's got you all in a lather Ken  ....but it is indeed an exciting solution, I feel the simple 'outside the box' ideas are often some of the best 

Cheer's

Lightfoot.

[dhaslam]

It should be relatively easy to send signals along power cables.   In Ireland the ESB used to carry their internal accounting and control information on their own cables. I am not sure if they still do.     One thing I noticed on the UK electricity usage graph is that there is a peak electricity demand when storage heaters come on first at night and then this tails off as they reach temperature.   Smoothing out these predictable demands on a daily basis would also be an advantage.   The peak demand when everyone finishes work is another one.    Batteries must be approaching the point where homes could benefit from off peak electricity for all their requirements leaving  day time electricity for industry.   The wind generation problem is more difficult because it is possible to have several days without much wind. If  gas and oil are used then maximum value would be obtained by using it primarily as a reserve. 

[lightfoot]

Yes I agree too, that storage of energy has a major role to play in a renewable energy future.

Cheer's

Lightfoot.

PS, Billi that air storage idea that you posted a link to earlier looks good and I guess this is something along the same lines:  http://www.2oc.co.uk/index.htm.

[NickW]

Martin,

As a serious amateur cynic I have to acknowledge the presence of a true professional.

NickW's quick bit of math ought to be done by more people more often.  So many times I have read an article that includes a few numbers or a bit of stats.  When considered rationally it rarely makes sense.

Yep including many of the ideas promoted on this site. When I apply the hard cold steel of economics to various proposals (usually the rapid scaling of renewables with high initial energy inputs) I get flammed!

My view remains that the only way we can achieve the energy leverage to transform to a 100% renewables economy is by at least maintaining nuclears share for the next 30-50 years.

Of course the alternative is to follow 'green' Germany's approach and burn ever increasing amounts of lignite - that well known clean and carbon free fuel

If we dont resolve the 'leverage' issue Mad Max II & III is probably a good preparation guide for the future.

[NickW]

hi

this sounds intresting...  air storrage..

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/167751619.html

I wondered whether exhausted gas and oil fields could be used in this way??

I think this would be a better use than c02 storage which is just another drain on energy resources

[lightfoot]

Billi, Nick and All,

I've been having a look at their website....very interesting indeed.

http://www.generalcompression.com/index.html

Lightfoot.

[dan_aka_jack]

The idea of using "domestic loads" to balance demand with supply on the grid sounds like an excellent one.  In order for it to work, I assume the Powers That Be would need to come up a standardised protocol for allowing the grid to communicate with the appliances (or, at least, to discuss options for implementing control via frequency-response).  Ideally, this "standard" should be at least Europe-wide if not world-wide.  And the standard would need to be ratified soon so the first generation of EV vehicles can come with the necessary features to facilitate "grid-controlled" charging.

It's a happy coincidence that the European Energy Commissioner has just started a blog... a blog where he openly invites suggestions and ideas.  Perhaps this "controlling domestic loads to balance demand with supply" idea could be the first comment on the blog?!?

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/piebalgs/a-warm-welcome-to-my-blog/

...Things are moving in the right direction but there are new challenges ahead. I would like to invite all my fellow bloggers and all citizens to contribute your ideas. I would like 2008 to be the European year of Energy Efficiency. I’m proposing to table measures to increase energy efficiency in our buildings, in our energy devices, in the way we consume energy. What are your ideas? What measures would you like to see the Commission take? What would you include in the new legislation?

[martin]

I'm sorry there are just times that you just can't resist a leg-pull
(and this is one of them)
"apply the hard cold steel of economics to various proposals" - quite apart from being rather redolent of a guilty as-hell Jonathan Aitken protesting his innocence, it's tempted me to post an apposite quote (never a good thing)

    Jim Hacker: Bernard, Humphrey should have seen this coming and warned me.
    Bernard: I don't think Sir Humphrey understands economics, Prime Minister; he did read Classics, you know.
    Hacker: What about Sir Frank? He's head of the Treasury!
    Bernard: Well I'm afraid he's at an even greater disadvantage in understanding economics: he's an economist! 

I'm not saying a dickey bird about "leverage" - honest.............

[NickW]

Martin - your hardly a 'neutral' in this debate - you sell small scale renewable technologies. I have no problem with these and have invested in solar thermal myself but some are questionable as to whether it would be better to leave the minerals in the ground.

However I will say it yet again.....

Investment funds are finite and should be best applied in a dispatch approach - ie the low hanging fruit first. Wasting funds on technology with low EROEI and very high initial energy inputs is a dead end.

Solar PV is not a simple technolgy - the manufacturing of it is a complex process that requires reliable power. The irony is that all those solar PV factories in China and Taiwan rely on coal and Nuclear baseload. Try to run these on intermittant wind and solar - no chance.

Oh and before someone pipes in with the storage issue, consider this, PV is currently barely economic with cheap and reliable FF / nuclear power powering the manufacturing facilities.  Switch to a renewables base, add in the cost of energy storage facilities, and the usual transmission losses in converting the surplus into compressed air and then back again and the cost of PV will literally rocket. Oh the irony - PV will be back to where it started - a niche product powering satelites and nothing else

[martin]

your premise is based on "I couldn't possibly make do with less", and you are looking to  perpetuate our gas-guzzling lifestyle with the use of the ultimately frighteningly expensive and dangerous nuclear technology. 
My premise is that we should not be gently applying the brakes a tad, but far more a "brace yourselves, rubber squealing u-turn time!" We MUST adopt a "less is more" philosophy, and pdq! - 30-50 years of nuclear.........pish tosh and rhubarb, that WOULD bring about a Mad Max scenario very quickly indeed.........we just do not have that long.....
as for economics.........."The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable." ~ John Kenneth Galbraith 
ps, to be neutral about the imminent demise of life on earth would be symptomatic of being barking bonkers - of course I'm not neutral!

[NickW]

Good luck convincing the general populous / 2.5 billion chinese and indians to adopt a 'less is more' approach