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Author Topic: pictorial - mounting a 20 panel frame  (Read 11356 times)
Amaterasu
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« on: August 16, 2006, 08:48:57 AM »

Edit by Antman - trying to find out if Geoff still has the pictures for this thread. If so we'll append them again.


Hi
some time ago there was a request from a number of forum users for some step by step pictures of a solar panel installation.

As with all things there are a number of ways of doing this task and I am not suggesting that what is depicted here should be adopted by all.

This is just the method I use, for one man installation. If there are 2 people then lifting / positioning will be easier!

Picture 1 - manifold box contents.

Everything you need is in this box - except for the stainless straps and nuts / bolts for fixing the frame to the roof. These are an option from Ivan.
I would recommend using these as the straps are considerably thinner than the standard builders straps available and therefore will bend much more easily.

In the box you get

The manifold
Enough stainless jubillee clips - in fact there is usually at least 1 spare.
Rubber cups for the bottom of the tubes.
Tube of thermal silicon paste (for application to the manifold end of the heat pipe - and sensors)
Reflectors - to sit behind and between the tubes
Stainless clips and nuts / bolts - to fix the reflectors in place (NOTE these have been redesigned from the method shown in the instruction manual on the Navitron website)


I usually attach the upper straps whilst the frame is on the ground.
I prefer to leave the lowers until I have the frame in place -  its more fiddly but there are less bits of steel strap flapping around when you lift the frame to the roof.
NOTE: the head of the bolt is uppermost.
Also note the redesigned mountings for the manifold (far left of picture). On a 20 tube manifold there are 4 captive bolts that locate the manifold through these raised pressings in the frame uprights. 6 on a 30 tube.


The lower horizontal rail is also bolted to the uprights at this stage.
Do not overtighten these bolts as this will allow some movement between the upright and the horizontal rails. The uprights do not always sit flat on roof tiles (especially the redland style that have grooves up and down them - as opposed the flat concrete tiles on this example)


I prefer to push the tile above the batten that I intend to use as a fixing upwards - using a wooden block and a lump hammer, tapping gently.
A lump hammer can apply a larger mass of pressure with little swing as opposed to a standard hammer hit harder.
On the roof shown here the tiles are held in place with special aluminium fixings rather than nailed through the tile as with other types of concrete tile and slate.
For tiles that are nailed the nail can the removed using a "slate ripper" or by hitting an old chisel up under the bottom of the tile immediately above to chop off the head of the nail. The tile can then be lifted free and the remainder of the nail removed.

NOTE this method only works where tiles are hung on battens. If you are fitting to a slate roof you will have to feel for the strap from the inside.
Other types of roof design may need other approaches.

Note also the twine used to hold the frame in place whilst the other work takes place.

I use the sharp end of the strap to puncture the felt, these then ensures that the smallest possible cut is made in the felt.


Once the top straps are secured I remove the complete tile where the lower strap is to be fixed.
I affix the strap (fiddly I know !) - but have it pointing DOWNWARDS from the frame.
I then loop it back up and over the batten.
Leaving sufficient of the strap to fit around the bottom of the tile.

I feel this adds a little more stability to the bottom of the frame.
The tiles on this roof are laid in a staggered pattern with each tile having half a tile overlapped above it. This makes for a very strong roof with each tile giving strength and wind resistance to each other.
There is a possibility that in high wind situations in exposed places the bottom of the frame could lift - the reflectors act like sails.
This method will help to reduce this possibility.



Lower strap with tile replaced.


Once the frame is securely fixed in place on the inside of the roof. - I use screws and washers.


The manifold is lifted into place.
I find this easier than trying to lift frame and manifold in together.
On a 20 tube system this is possible single handidly. On a 30 tube system you need an assistant.
Drop the manifold into the top rail tags (having removed the bolts first!).
It will not move, and then re-fit bolts.

Fit plumbing to manifold outlets so that position of holes in tiles can be calculated.
You can see that I have used a straight 22 x 15 reducer and the a 15mm elbow.
This will allow me to avoid roof joists below by varying the length of the 15mm tubing.
On this installation I cut back the 22mm manifold pipe so as to reduce the overall length.

I use an 18mm diamond dust tipped core bit to drill holes - its just my preference.

To make sure it starts correctly I use a template and begin with that in place (in this instance I stood on it to make sure it didnt move)
Run the drill at high speed and introduce the core bit through the template.
After a minute or so of contact with the tile a groove will have been made.
Remove the template and drill at a slower speed - with no more than light pressure.
Lubricate with water often -  this will cool the bit and flush away dust.


Once the pipework has been tightened - the roof needs to be made water tight.
As suggested elswehere I push silicon sealant into the gap between pipe and the tile. Make sure it goes all the way down to the bottom of the hole.


As an additional measure I like to cover the area with piece of flashing repair tape. This has a grey foil outer layer and a mastic backing.
Cut a piece about 4" square
Make an indent in the middle with the end of a piece of 15mm pipe.
Using scissors cut from an edge and remove the pipe indented piece of tape.
Remove the backing and place over the pipe and press down onto the tile - making sure all dust and rubbish is removed first, and the area is dry.
Make sure the cut is on the lower side of the pipe.

Press the tape into place (i use the handle of a large screwdriver)
On cold days it is acceptable to warm the tape briefly (and i mean briefly) with a blowlamp.

Thats it job done!


I hope these pictures have been useful.
As I said at the top of this, these are my methods. If you wish to do it any different then feel free. As long as what you propose is safe, watertight and does not damage your roof then it will probably be ok.

I hope to follow this item up with other photographs as the install progresses
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 03:21:35 PM by Antman » Logged

Geoff.........
Ian
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2006, 05:14:21 PM »

Hey Amaterasu - This is a fine piece of work and the pictures are as good as 1000 words. Great stuff!

This kind of work takes a lot of time and more effort than will ever be seen; I am sure it will be appreciated.

Regards,
Ian
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hav1
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 04:38:34 PM »

Hi
This is a great piece of work and a great help to new installers. Just one thought-- It is sometimes difficult to measure up to get to the right point of the roof to start. Go inside the roof and locate where you want the say left hand pipe to enter. Them pass a piece of wire under the lile in this position. You can then go outside and you know where to lift the first tile.

I have ordered a 30 tube system with the 30 tube roof mounting kit. Will the mounting kit include the stainless steel straps.
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Ivan
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 11:34:50 PM »

Geoff - you put my pictoral guide to shame!!! Nice work with the photos.

hav1 - the panel does not include mounting straps. These are an extra cost item. You can use builders' strap, but I would not recommend it, as it is galvanised rather than stainless steel, so it will eventually rust through given time (which is not a good thing, as the panel may slide off the roof!), alternatively, some installers simply coach-bolt through the roof, but this means potential leakage points.

Ivan
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wyleu
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 06:19:21 PM »

Rivits are a bit rusty on that ladder, is it the right class and has it been checked recently?... police

Just wondering like... Grin
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Solarflare
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 03:19:06 PM »

Dont forget the safety harnest  Shocked

Still, great report!
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Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 11:28:22 PM »

Amaterasu,

I've been looking through the old posts and thanks this one is very useful during my installation.

One question though, in the picture labelled "step 6" (right click | Properties) why not bend the strap immediatly over the exposed tile onto a nogging glued/screwed behind the felt. The strap will have a smaller radius of movement, maybe 3 inches instead of the full tile, so in gale force winds the bottom of the frame will be held better.

cheers
Paul
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dinitro
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 12:29:52 PM »


Excellent pictures..

Probably a variation for the plumbing of the manifold is to use 22mm to 15mm elbows this will cut
the number of fittings by 1 on each leg of the manifold... important since the panel is probably mounted
in an inaccessible area ie roof and requires ladders for access.

probably a silly question why can't you bolt through the tiles?  Since you effectively pass pipes though tiles... why
can't you put a couple of coach screws through tiles and an L shaped holding bracket that you bolt the panel to?
if the rafters to not align on the otherside you could put a batton and screw into this.  Coach screws could use a combination
of plastic sleeve and mastic to prevent corrosion.

dinitro
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1x 20 x 58mm panel NEE, 4x 20 x 58mm panels south, Navi-Newark 320 litre thermal store direct boiler/ rad tap by boiler, retro coil, solar coil, termovar 61, S. circuit 30m+30m flow/ return. NEE 5m flow, 5m return.  S. panel 52 degrees. NEE 45.
http://sunscribe.homeip.net
http://agni.homeip.net
Amaterasu
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2007, 10:35:36 PM »

paul
Yes you are quite right - that will work as well. As I mentioned in my post I was not suggesting the definitive install - just one option.

Dinitro

Drilling through the tiles is ok, but I feel that every hole i make in a tile is a potential leak. Sealing the drilling with the frame on top is going to be more difficult than not having to do any sealing with the strap method.

At the end of the day its your choice, as long as your chosen method securely fixes the frame to the roof and does not allow the ingress of water then it has been successful.
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Geoff.........
Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 12:30:00 AM »

For my 30-tube panel I used 3 stainless straps at the top and 2 bolts at bottom to prevent any lifting - using A4 threaded stainless rod.

The building inspector thought this was a good compromise.

-Paul

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escapeman
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2007, 03:09:43 AM »

Absolutely superb info, many thanks for this mini guide!

However, we are about to install 40 (or *maybe* 60!) tubes onto a slate roof.  Has anyone done this?

My problem is that slates are in effect 3 layers "thick", so any sealant would have to be smeared in between these lawers too.

Any able to offer advice?

Cheers, Bertil.
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Bargeman
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2007, 06:38:19 AM »

Hello Bertil,

On a slate roof  rather than using sealant for the roof penetrations I would fabricate a copper plate with a perpendicular tube inserted and soldered through it. This tube acts as an external sleeve for the solar circuit pipework and will prevent water ingress more durably than sealant. The upper edge of the copper plate can be inserted under the slate above the penetration and the tube inserted into the hole drilled through the tiles. Your solar circuit pipework can then been fed through the tube and connected to the collector. It can be sealed at the junction between the external sleeve and the pipework. I find this a more robust solution than just applying sealant around the penetration.

You will find references and I believe pictures of this solution by searching previous threads.

regards
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 06:44:24 AM by Bargeman » Logged
Ivan
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 01:22:59 AM »

or a more expensive way - Navitron now sells the roof flashing kits.
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Martyn
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 10:05:06 PM »

Neat job Ameratsu, Thanks.

A suggestion for the application of the flashing tape:  if you fold the tape over and cut out the semicircle (hi-tech origami here!) then you can pass the tape over the 22mm pipe before you add the compression joint; add the silicone; then cut off the backing paper and press the tape home.  You won't then have a cut to bother about and there will be less chance of it coming adrift with time.

Can you clarify which end the temp sensor pocket is please?  I spoke to John in the office on Friday and I thought he said it was at the right end but I can't see it in your last picture.    My cylinder will be on the opposite side of my gable wall so I'm currently specifying the solar flow and return on opposite sides of the cylinder (2 o'clock and 10 o'clock positions) to minimize my pipe runs. 
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Aussie
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2008, 12:15:53 PM »

Some ways I do things..
On clay tile roofs

I have made modified x long coach bollts with
stainless steel round discs welded to tops of bolts.

drill pilot with eg 6mm masonry bit
then drill with carbide holesaw about 20mm  having standard drill bit in centre.
Theres no load or cut on drill then, its just a centralizer.

Then pilot drill for coach bolt.
Screw down feet using head of coach bolt
Lay frame across 4 round discs levelled up
attach frame to 4 / 6 etc discs ie mounting feet

Our old home frames are hardwood so once they go in no movement at all.
Silicon around entry point etc..


On our corrugated iron rooves easist is to lift sheet (one sheet away) from pipe entry points into roof space..
easier access for checking, wiring, roof internal access.


plus eg drilling down into roof ceiling etc..
Then leave sheet off till last to inspect before screwing back down.

Plus it lets the possums and fruitbats out..

You all likely know these tricks..

Nick Aussie
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