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Author Topic: Hooray - Oil's back down to $110 !!  (Read 5559 times)
KenB
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« on: May 01, 2008, 06:38:48 PM »

List,

Oil has tumbled back from $120 a barrel down to $110 - where it was in mid March.

The Nigerians have stopped striking, MEND have stopped bombing pipelines and even Grangemouth and the Fortes field and pipeline are back to business as usual (almost).

So that means that overnight, those thieving bar stewards at the Texaco garage around the corner are going to drop diesel from £1.229 per litre back to £1.139 where it was in mid-March?

Crikey! - there's another one of Pink Floyd's inflatable flying pigs......


Ken

PS. can we have a flying pig smilie please - reserved for the most cynical and incredulous of posts.







« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 06:55:27 PM by KenB » Logged
martin
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 07:04:55 PM »

 flyingpig flyingpig flyingpig
and two others!
 sh*tfan surrender
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2008, 10:33:44 PM »

Is this gratuitous ballooning of Smilyism exponential or logarithmic?



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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2008, 10:47:51 PM »

well,on tonights reckoning,it looks exponential dunnit?
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Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2008, 11:11:17 PM »

Opec have warned it could reach $200 by the end of the year!
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 01:34:27 AM »

Opec have warned it could reach $200 by the end of the year!

Yes I heard that on working lunch. I also heard that the petrol price is expected to be £1.50 by october.

Rich
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 09:24:01 PM »

Huh! £1.50 for petrol by October - that means diesel will have hit the £1.50/L mark by July!   Angry
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 10:29:03 AM »

Just for reference:

Crude Oil Jun 08 (CLM08.NYM)



http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=CLM08.NYM

The chart above will keep updating.  But today (Tue 6-5-08) Oil is at a historic high of $120.70 $122.35.  *edit* Friday 9-5-08 - oil is at a new historic high of $124 $125.70!

Lucky that Scottish wind farm got the go-ahead.  Oh.  Wait.  No it didn't.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 12:40:58 PM by dan_aka_jack » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 12:13:59 PM »

The crude oil price just breached $130

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CLN08.NYM
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KenB
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 07:30:08 PM »

Jack, 

The faceless  speculators, having pulled out of the US housing market before it collapsed have now moved on to oil and commodities as their latest source of income.

This BBC R4 programme, File on Four describes the devastating effect speculation in the grain futures is having on poor African states such as Ghana.  Listen again from this site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file_on_4/default.stm

Whilst speculation on oil going from $100 to $132 in 15 weeks causes me a minor irritation in my back pocket, food and commodity speculation has a devastating effect on the poorer nations, where thy have seen a loaf of bread double in price - and are now buying it a slice at a time!

The rich get richer and the poor are starved...



Ken
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dan_aka_jack
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2008, 08:46:52 AM »

Indeed, those pesky speculators do seem to be causing some problems.  In the interest of balanced debate, I should mention that a recent podcast from Platts discussed some of the reasons why speculators aren't necessarily all bad for markets (mostly because they provide liquidity and also because they tend to sell when prices are high, helping to stabilise the market).  Here's the RSS feed for the podcast.  Personally, I really don't know what to make of all the stuff I read about the oil price.  I'm sure a significant proportion of today's insane price (currently $134) is due to speculators but I believe an even larger proportion is attributable to market fundamentals:

Some bits and pieces (all from the OilDrum so forgive me if you've already read all this):

On the supply side:

Oilwatch Monthly May 2008 shows that global liquids supply was down by 400,000 barrels from March to April.  This is following a drop of 100,000 from Feb to March.

Russia's output is now down 3.3% from its peak late last year.  A recent piece in The Economist magazine says that this decrease has as much to do with Russia's tax policy (which discourages spending money on exploration and infrastructure construction, bizarrely) and apparently some Russian oil experts believe Russia's output will increase before the year is out.  But, whatever the Russians say, and whatever the reason, the fact is that Russia's output is down 3.3%.   (Russia is the largest non-OPEC producer and the second-largest producer in the world, after Saudi Arabia).

Several "oil mega projects" are, as I understand it, being delayed due to high costs of steel, drilling rigs, engineers etc.

Oil Monitor (IEA) to Slash Estimate Of World's Supply of Crude (parts behind paywall)

Oil prices pass $134 after government report of a drop in crude and gasoline inventories

And on the demand side:

America will soon enter "driving season".

China's demand probably increased after the earthquake (they need lots of diesel for the rescue operations and the re-building).

If I were a betting man, I would bet that this is it.  Total liquids production has peaked and we're two months into the decline.  $134 will sound cheap within a few months.  (Of course, we can't be certain of the date of the peak until we're some significant way down the down-slope).  Quick, UK Plc, build the new energy infrastructure before steel and copper costs go into the stratosphere (steel prices have quadrupled in the last 2 years).  And no more NIMBY cr*p about birds not liking turbines.  We really don't have time to be messing around.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 08:50:55 AM by dan_aka_jack » Logged

KenB
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2008, 11:10:20 AM »

Jack, List,

One school of thought suggests that the financial markets have just grasped the reality that we are dealing with a globally essential commodity which has started to decline at a rate of about 4.5% per year, and has no easy substitute.

Whilst we can "fix" the food supply problem, with additional planting, selective growing of essential crops and improved agricultural practice, the future for the oil supply industry, does not look so rosy.

If the world is using 85 million barrels per day (31 billion per year)  and the price has doubled in the last 12 months from about $68 to $135, then there is a considerable amount of extra money flowing into the pockets of the oil producers.

How is this money being invested?   They ought to be buying new high-tech drilling plant, to maximise the oil extraction from the declining fields.  However they could always be using some of the additional funds to fuel price speculation in future oil production.  whistlie

If we have reached the "bumpy plateau" of approximately 85 mbpd, then this is as good as it gets.  If every producer is pumping as hard as they can to maintain the supply - ie remain level, then this is bad news and the plateau will soon change to a rapid, irreversible decline.  There will be nothing that we can globally do, to slow down the descent into absolute oil poverty.

With the commodity plateaued and the only possible outcome being future decline, then its not surprising that we are seeing significant price rises.   Oil for 2016 delivery is being traded for $135.  What do you consider will be the price of oil in 2016?  Clearly the speculators are going to make a lot of money from this - and they know they are on to a winner. The "myth" of peak oil has been busted and the speculators are moving in to clean up.

With the IEA (or is it the EIA?)  stating that reserves stand at 1255 billion barrels,  - dividing this by 31 billion annual consumption, gives only  40.5 years of remaining production - and all those barrels will be harder and costlier to extract than any have been up to this date. At some point the energy expended in their extraction will be so great, that it will be an act of global desperation and suicide (similar to the Kamikaze missions of WW2) to continue extraction.

As oil gets tighter in supply, attention will be turned to natural gas and coal, and the various conversion processes of gas to liquids and coal to liquids.  This will speed up the decline of these fossil fuels accordingly and push up the prices to make them comparable with their oil equivalent.  I would hazard a guess that we will be out of oil, gas and coal in about 40 years.

By way of an analogy - If the electricity supply was following the same peak/plateau behaviour, you could guarantee that we would be paying increased tariffs -  with every powerstation spinning at full capacity, the interconnector with France running at full capacity. 

If under these conditions we were seeing an increase in demand for electricity (all those plasma screen TVs and digital set top boxes, PCs and ) and the natural wearing out of old generating plant, then we will see an unavoidable rise in our domestic fuel bills.

I suggest we don't get too used to oil at $135,  it will probably be $140 by the end of next week and $150 within a fortnight.  - Have you noticed that it normally reaches a new peak by Thursday/Friday?

We are in for a bumpy ride followed by a painful crash  - biofuel "lifejackets" will be useless and parachutes not included.


Ken


« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:23:23 AM by KenB » Logged
dan_aka_jack
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 11:25:38 AM »

Perfectly put, Ken.

As the chief economist of the IEA says: "It's time to leave oil before it leaves us."

We should probably extend that sentiment to almost all finite commodities that are dug out of the ground (especially metals and fossil fuels).  Also, I'm yet to be completely convinced that agricultural productivity can be ramped up much further, especially considering the rapidly rising cost of nitrogen fertiliser, diesel and commodities used for the construction of large-scale irrigation projects.  I'd be willing to bet a huge sum of money that the world population will never hit 9bn.  We'll look back on today's widely quoted population estimate of "9bn by 2050" as a brutal illustration of just how naive many economists are to issues like peak oil, biological holding capacity and climate change.
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KenB
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 11:59:01 AM »

Jack, List,

Making future predictions during times of extreme market turbulence is at best difficult. However I suspect that the speculators have finally seen the "writing on the wall" and are starting to cash in on a declining commodity.

The sums of money associated with oil production are astronomical - with about $11.5 billion flowing daily into the pockets of the oil producers.

It should be noted also that the price of staple foodstuffs have also doubled in the last 12 months, with farmers and the agricultural industry making significant profits, for the first time after years of depressed prices.

Does this mean that food prices have undergone a "correction" to bring them in line with the true cost of production?  Are they now priced accordingly so as to reflect the cost of oil.

Imagine a grain reserve, laid down in 2000, when oil was about $25 per barrel, and corn selling for say $2 per bushel.   If that reserve is now empty and needs to be replenished, it will have to be done using fuel, pesticides and fertilisers that have all risen considerably due the rise in the cost of oil.

Some say that modern food production is merely the "laundering" of petro-calories into edible calories -and done at an overall energy loss, with as many as 10 petro-calories being expended to make 1 calorie of USA raised beef.

We have reached a situation where fuel is food, but this has been proven to be irreversible, food should never be fuel.

As we have allowed our grain reserves to fall to an all time low - it is clear that the cost of replacing them will be much greater than a few years ago. 

This article highlights some of the pressures now being put on the world food supply - note the links to the production versus consumption, showing that consumption now exceeds supply with six out of the last 7 years grain has been running into deficit.  The misguided corn to ethanol program has helped use up cheap corn reserves and is now eating into future production intended to supply human consumption.  In 2006 USA corn destined for ethanol exceeded that exported for human consumption

http://www.energybulletin.net/17261.html

Worrying times ahead,



Ken










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KenB
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 12:20:36 PM »

Jack,

Thanks for the link to the Fatih Birol interview:

Quote
Birol:
I can already tell you that in our "World Energy Outlook 2008" which will be published in November we will deal in depth with the prospects of the oil and gas production. We will take a look at the 350 most important oil and gas fields and explore how much production rates are sinking and what that means.

It sounds like he has already made up his mind that production from the 350 most important oil and gas fields is in decline.



Ken
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