Wind In West London

[Stuboy]

Have been reading the forum which i found this morning for 7 hours now! All very interesting stuff. My questions are as follows:-
My electricity usage is about 350Watts going upto a 1K with my stereo on. 
I would like to generate about 300-500watts on average and grid tie it.
I've been reading that wind is not good close to trees etc, should I stick a pole up and take some readings in different locations in my garden before i start. I think I can get about 1.5m max diameter in before anyone would object!
Has anyone else in London tried wind?  I'm not in that a built up area and have a tube line at the end of the garden in a cutting so from most directions sight lines aren't too bad, except for the MMMMassive willow tree 5 doors up!
Any general advise from the wise?
Regards
Stuart

[dhaslam]

It is worth testing.  The smaller wind generators operate at much lower wind speeds.  The problem with buildings is that the wind goes over them causing back currents etc..   If you can find a place  where the wind is channeled  between obstructions  the wind  speed could be higher.   

[CeeBee]

I've no personal experience of wind-turbines - only learned anything from reading on here. I'm not saying it's impossible, but do give some consideration to whether grid-tie is feasible with a small installation like this. Firstly the typical small turbine is likely to produce a low voltage (probably more targeted to charging batteries). Is there a suitable grid-tie inverter, designed for wind, which will operate at the voltage your turbine produces? Secondly, grid-tie inverters tend to take a few minutes to test the mains, ensure everything is within whatever the regulations say, and synchronise before they start feeding anything - if by then the wind has dropped again, you'll never get anything. On the other hand, a turbine charging batteries stands a chance of doing it whenever it manages to rotate.

[renewablejohn]

I have just purchased a mobile lighting tower mainly for the 3 phase generator and Lister LPA3A engine. It would make a great test bed for wind turbine demonstration and data collection having a hydraulic mast which can be raised or lowered.

Stuboy
If London was nearer to Lancashire you could borrow the tower for some live data logging and being mobile I think you would get away with not requiring planning permission.   

[martin]

In a town, unless you can swing consent for a 100' tower - forget it!
(it's just too turbulent!) - do a forum search on "chocolate teapot!"

[billi]

PV perhaps  , longer livespan,less maintenance , less trouble with neighbours,easy to install, small gridtie inverters available

Billi

[peter999]

  Wind turbines are great love my one to bits but I hate to say it but i would probaly agree with Martin unless you can get it to a greater height than any buildings trees around you, you will lose too much power to turbulane.

Pv panels bolt them on the roof forget about them no moving parts to fly off no noise no problems with neighbours, much simpler life all round and produce good amount of power that works well gridtied.

Get yourself a 1kw worth of pv and grid tie it, job done.

regards peter

[martin]

Certain crooked companies have a lot to answer for - they've implanted the idea in  the public consciousness that urban wind power is viable for their own nefarious ends...
Unfortunately, they really won't work, and I know a great many people are sorely disappointed when you tell them the truth
I'd agree with Billi - there's a lot to be said for pv - if you lashed out the price of a chocolate teapot, you could have a very useful pv array that cold either charge batteries, or you could grid-tie!

[NickW]

In a town, unless you can swing consent for a 100' tower - forget it!
(it's just too turbulent!) - do a forum search on "chocolate teapot!"

Martin

What if for example I managed to get hold of a small wind turbine - ampair / rutland 913 type for say £70-£80?

Does the turbulence affect the charging of a 12volt battery. I appreciate the issues with grid tie sychronisation etc.

The reason I ask is that I am looking at 'doomer' options - ie emergency charging and wind would add some variation from a PV only array. Obviously not looking for grid replacement but enough power and battery back up to run pump on solar panel, couple of lights etc.

Im thinking along the lines of perhaps 400w of PV and a second hand rutland plus 500a/h batteries. Although in a suburban environment - its elevated, and quite exposed.

Regards

Nick

[martin]

unfortunately it goes for battery charging too....... a turbine needs to "churn" - stick it's head into the wind, spin up to generation speed, and stay there..... Anywhere there are obstructions that will put "lumps" into the wind will stop it from doing that!
You're obviously going to do it, so put it in the most favourable position you can (well away from buildings, fences etc, on as tall a pole as you can manage - ideally you want a "clear fetch" from the south-west - open fields or whatever) Whatever you do, don't try building-mounting it, that WILL kill the performance stone dead - "down the garden" will always be better!

[mespilus]

The best solution for Wind in West London, or any other urban environment is a


 ...Rennie.

[NickW]

Thanks Martin

From what you say it sounds like its a none starter. Although the location is windy due to its elevation above the plains I would have to roof mount. I was thinking a scaffold pole - perhaps 2-3 metres above the ridge line.

In terms of obstructions - on the level there are none on the west and north sides of the site as other houses are below. That said it does tend to be very gusty.

Oh well back to looking at PV only options.

Although Im off at the end of next year I am probably keeping the house as the market is completely dead. Going to rent out long term to a relative who needs bigger house but hasn't the capital to buy so am mindful of setting it up for them.

I may stick another 20 tube system in and a bigger tank to reduce gas consumption and hope for the best with the leccy supply. Other options include a wood stove but the cost of the twin wall flue a bit daunting.

Perhaps buy a kelly kettle and a couple of spare solar tubes for cooking

Thanks for the advice

Nick

[rhys]

For those interested in Building integrated turbines in urban areas here's the science!!! All 118 pages.
http://www.eru.rl.ac.uk/pdfs/BUWT_final_v004_full.pdf

[martin]

"The founder of the US company Bergey turbines, Mike Bergey, does not recommend mounting
turbines on buildings and wishes “people would stop asking us about mounting turbines on
buildings”. Bergey turbines have been mounted on the Green Building in Dublin and
encountered problems: the blades cracked – probably due to turbulence loading – and were
replaced with new ones by Proven. This highlights the imperative need for BUWTs to be
designed and tested to be intrinsically robust for high wind shear and turbulent environments.
Charlie Robb of Element Engineering advises that wind turbines should NEVER be mounted
on buildings because of:
(i)   likely very poor performance due to turbulence,
(ii)  transmitted noise through building structures,
(iii) little thought is ever given to building structural issues,
(iv) most importantly: ANY wind turbine can break down for an unexpected reason whether
      properly maintained or not, and sometimes the failure can be catastrophic. It is not possible
      to make an unguarded rotating machine completely safe in the event of a catastrophic
      failure. If a building-mounted wind turbine falls down or disintegrates there is a serious risk
      to people and property. (However, it should be pointed out that rotating fans, for
      applications such as air conditioning, are already often mounted on buildings within
      suitably designed enclosures and with appropriate safety control features.)"

well, at least someone talked sense in it...........almost........ on point (iv) he neglected to mention that if it were sufficiently cowled/shielded, it would undoubtedly kill the performance stone dead (if there were any in the first place).......
I would suggest this was carefully chosen to show "balance", whilst ignoring the leading experts!
I skimmed the rest, and saw a lot of evidence of snouts in troughs, but little new, or of any consequence - lots of carefully chosen "part quotes" like the bloke from Marlec remarking that there is certainly a "market" for teapots.........
To be frank, it's not "science", at best it's a misusing of "science" to gain grant moneys, and an attempt to allow architects to falsely claim something like "30% green energy" on a building with a teapot on the basis of guesstimation and surmise.
The clincher that it's not worth the pixels on the screen is the total absence of data and opinion from the blokes who actually DO know something about the subject, and between them write most of the text books - Hugh Piggott and Paul Gipe!

[MR GUS]

well then should there not be a big group based on evidence so far who challenge roof mounted choco-latte teapots & get it out to the wider public (eg radio 4 for starters) that this funding is old boy network & back to the main power companies from whom the "credits / funding" come from in the first place for their overpriced non functioning chocolate fondue fountains! (ie the big 7 or whatever) ..so that these & other green items (eg their own overpriced solar etc) are just a money making scam backed by government.

if this were purely commercial they'd have to be investigated, as is they're paid for by the tax of you & I given to the govt whose local council minions recommend them at the negotiated deal price etc & say its public funding.

clearly it is only if you screw your eyes in order to see a skewed view of the world (never mind the lens tints...rose obviously)