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Author Topic: Ben's MSc Thesis  (Read 1926 times)
cornishben
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« on: December 17, 2008, 04:37:37 PM »

sorry guys - probably boring you all here, just athinking whilst bored at work! 

I've just had a preliminary idea for a project accepted by my MSc supervisor to design a new solar PV tile (have some ideas for improvements), but now wondering if some kind of home renewable energy monitoring project, based around programming up a m/c like this might be more fun..   trouble is we don't have any electrical generation (PV/wind) just the solar HW so not sure i can think of enough depth/useful functionality to warrant an MSc thesis ?!
Any thoughts?
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KenB
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 05:27:48 PM »

Cornishben, List,

Hot water from a solar thermal panel offsets gas consumption, which reduces a household's CO2 footprint.

How much though?   

With an Arduino,  a couple of temperature sensors and an inline flow sensor (£38) you could directly measure the kWh of solar energy gained each day, and thus equate that to gas savings.

Fit the Arduino with some pump control relays (£6.50 ebay) and an SD card interface (£15) and you have a completely hackable solar controller with internet connection and data logging for under £100. 

The Arduino route is very low cost, so you could add keypad and display (£11) or colour display with joystick (£20) and have a controller which could compete with the TDC3 and be completely reconfigurable.

see nuelectronics.com

With an ethernet shield on the Arduino, (£13) you could upload this solar data to the likes of the Pachube server

http://community.pachube.com/

so that it could be viewed and compared by others. 

Now if this controller/datalogger is cheap enough,  you might get several DIY solar enthusiasts taking it up and making their data available via Pachube.  It would be easy to tell how much solar is available in Exeter or Edinburgh, Newquay or Newcastle. This data could be extrapolated to indicate how much the solar water heating is reducing CO2 across the whole country.   It could become quite competetive - with users comparing and boasting how much solar and how little gas they have used.

If you can do this national monitoring with solar, then you can also do it with PV or wind or any other form of renewable electricity.  The data logged by Pachube would be of direct use to Good Energy and other renewable energy suppliers - so that they can legimately account for Heat ROCS.

It would be an easy way for Navitron members to view and share data, and give real world measurements of what's being generated.  It would help to build up an overall picture of exactly what renewables are being currently produced.

A general purpose kit could be produced , with a variety of sensors, relay boards, flow meters etc, so you could easily customise the system for the various renewable measurement applications eg.

Solar thermal meter
Solar pV meter
Wind Power Meter
Water/rainwater meter
Smart Heating controller

With the various tasks involved, hardware, firmware, software and internet data presentation, I would have thought that there would be enough meat on that to satisfy an MSc project & thesis.

If the outcome was a sellable product, then you might even get sponsorship!


Ken

« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:39:44 PM by KenB » Logged
Mike N.
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 05:37:36 PM »

sorry guys - probably boring you all here, just athinking whilst bored at work! 

I've just had a preliminary idea for a project accepted by my MSc supervisor to design a new solar PV tile (have some ideas for improvements), but now wondering if some kind of home renewable energy monitoring project, based around programming up a m/c like this might be more fun..   trouble is we don't have any electrical generation (PV/wind) just the solar HW so not sure i can think of enough depth/useful functionality to warrant an MSc thesis ?!
Any thoughts?

I'm with Ken. Go for it. There are lots of people on this forum who could do bits of it if they had the time that you will have, but don't. I think you have an excellent opportunity to do something really worthwhile and, as Ken says, possibly even sellable, attracting sponsorship. It's relevant and useful for all the reasons Ken says, you have load of people here to offer you advice along the way, test things for you etc.

Too many MScs and PhDs are a waste of time and will never be looked at again(At Iestyn's graduation there was a chap getting a PhD having spent several years investigating the effects of different sized sticks in blocking streams...)

Go for it.

Mike
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ericw
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 05:38:37 PM »

Ben,

The usual way to interface a PC (or other USB driving box) to one wire devices is a DS9490 (www.hobbyboards.com & others) it just plugs into the USB port, and the one wire network plugs into the other side.
Free software is available for both Windows (LogTemp) and Linux (OWFS) to do interesting things with the outputs.
There are several threads on the forum discussing one wire networks.

Eric


« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:57:04 PM by Paulh_Boats » Logged
KenB
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 05:47:30 PM »

Cornishben, Mike,

How about a generic "Carbon Cost" meter, based on what I outlined above, with all of the philosophy of the "Current Cost"  device?

For a small investment of about £30 for the basic kit, sufficient to get data out to the internet,  with sensors being added as and when you need them, it could certainly be a sellable product. 

The true benefit of this technology come into play when you get a distributed population of them all contributing to a central database.



Ken


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stephend
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 06:43:44 PM »

Cornishben, there could also be an opportunity for an intelligent energy control system, something that:
- Uses sensors on energy consumers to measure the energy usage
- Uses sensors on energy producers to know what's available (e.g. on wind turbines, pv and solar thermal systems)
- Knows when cheap energy is available (low rate grid electricity)
- Reads weather data from the weather service
- Ties all this data together to make intelligent decisions about the home, such as turning on an immersion heater at night if the tank is at a certain temperature and it knows that tomorrow will be too cloudy for the solar thermal to heat the tank on it's own.  Or letting you know that now is fine time to turn on any heavy electric loads because you're over producing electricity, etc.  This sort of thing would be more interesting in an off-grid setup where one really has to be careful with every watt spent - but it would also have some applications in grid tied homes or businesses.
Making the whole thing modular so that it can suit different environments would be key.


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Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 09:04:35 PM »

I've just had a preliminary idea for a project accepted by my MSc supervisor to design a new solar PV tile (have some ideas for improvements), but now wondering if some kind of home renewable energy monitoring project, based around programming up a m/c like this might be more fun..   trouble is we don't have any electrical generation (PV/wind) just the solar HW so not sure i can think of enough depth/useful functionality to warrant an MSc thesis ?!
Any thoughts?

To be honest I don't think an electrical/gas energy monitoring system warrants an MSc thesis - its all been done before in some shape or form and plenty of ready made products exist.

But...
"Measuring and financial crediting of renewable heat generation" would get my vote as there is no accepted solution.

You would have to measure heat generated, calculate the CO2 offset and have a secure metering system. There is at least a years work in that.

-Paul
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 10:01:33 PM »

(At Iestyn's graduation there was a chap getting a PhD having spent several years investigating the effects of different sized sticks in blocking streams...)

Mike

Mike,

You don't know where I could track down a copy of that do you?

It would be really useful.

Seriously.
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44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
Mike N.
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2008, 09:08:07 AM »

(At Iestyn's graduation there was a chap getting a PhD having spent several years investigating the effects of different sized sticks in blocking streams...)

Mike

Mike,
You don't know where I could track down a copy of that do you? It would be really useful. Seriously.

I've had a quick Google and not found it, but it would have been Coventry University 2002 if you want to go looking yourself. If you find him, please don't tell him I used him as an example of not very useful research, especially if you find it useful. Wink

Mike
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Richard Owen
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2008, 11:35:03 AM »

If you find him, please don't tell him I used him as an example of not very useful research, especially if you find it useful. Wink

Mike

Certainly not.

It's just that my super scheme for getting water flowing over and through the ground loops for the heat pump keeps getting diverted by sticks getting stuck in various places.

I'll try and track it down. You never know, it might be worth something.

Thanks,
   Richard

P.S. My dissertation for my masters was all about value pricing of shares. What's that worth now?
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44 Yingli 230Wp panels feeding into 2x Solar Edge SE5000 inverters.
20x 58mm SE, 20x 58mm SW, Solar Thermal feeding 320l thermal store.
10kW heat pump.
300W of Hydro Power.
charlieb
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2008, 11:42:30 AM »


[/quote]

To be honest I don't think an electrical/gas energy monitoring system warrants an MSc thesis - its all been done before in some shape or form and plenty of ready made products exist.

But...
"Measuring and financial crediting of renewable heat generation" would get my vote as there is no accepted solution.

You would have to measure heat generated, calculate the CO2 offset and have a secure metering system. There is at least a years work in that.

-Paul
[/quote]

And if your MSc's got economic/social element as well as tecchie, like mine did, then you could keep yourself amused for months working out whether Utilities would be interested in this (it would enable them to count solar thermal installations towards their energy efficiency commitments (or whatever the new EEC is)).   THere could be serious value in it for them, as everyone knows solar thermal is amongst the cheapest of CO2 reductions possible, but they find it difficult to measure and confirm those reductions.
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cornishben
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2008, 12:12:58 PM »

many thanks for the valuable input all, I'd expect nothing less from the forum!
I'm feeling quite inspired by the ideas mooted. I now need to formulate them into a rough proposal to run past my supervisor.i think Paulh has a valid point that just locally monitoring system performance doesn't warrant a thesis in its own right. There are different commercial products available to do this plus all sorts of home automation technologies out there.  I therefore see two possibilities (which could possibly be combined)

1. Pauls "Measuring and financial crediting of renewable heat generation". Use a m/c and associated firmware/software to accurately measure the heat output of a solar thermal installation. Upload this data daily to a secure website for personal use, or by a utility company to calculate your renewable heat ROCs/carbon offset/etc. If the m/c & software could be manufactured as a self-contained unit then a utility company could issue these to consumers (like they do export meters) to enable accurate logging of heat generation. I guess as per the other thread, i could approach Good Energy with this idea. Presumably it could possibly be extended to GSHP in the future as well. As Charlieb just said, getting this social/economic angle in there will help wangle it..
     
     2. A more generic "carbon cost" meter/expandable data logging solution as Ken suggested. Producing a self-contained unit/kit  that can meter energy output of different renewable energy generators, be they electric or heat, again posting secure data to an online database.  With this idea, the key difference to just being a.n.other standalone monitoring system is that if its made generic/cheap/adaptable then they will enable accurate nationwide monitoring of renewable installations and give read-world feedback of what's being generated, which is lacking currently.  As David Mackay says 'we need numbers!'
     
I'd really appreciate any further thoughts on this, I'm going to try and come up with a proposal on the way home tonight (4hr train journey!). Which of these do you think is the most useful/viable/worthwhile/doable idea?  and do you have any further ideas on the detail of these?

I just did a google search on estimating solar thermal output and came up with a paper with a load of thermal calculations based on collector area, heat coefficients and the like; as you've mentioned the obvious solution is just to measure temperature change/flow rate..
       
re off-topic posts - I'll start a new topic along the lines of 'bens MSc thesis' in the NY if it gets accepted ;-)

re being entertained for a year - unfortunately I work full-time so this is going to be an evenings/weekend type affair!
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wyleu
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 05:50:58 PM »

They're will be (and are) lot's of this sort of thing coming together and it's about time ( looks wistfully at DTI proposal way back in 1995 doing this  way way back then Cheesy)

The real issue is an easily exchangeable data packet with some form of generalized definition of what the data is all about.
If I would comment on one aspect that I believe is important it is the complete decoupling of the measurement side of the system and the reactive element.
If you collect data you should only publish that without any facility to modify settings of the system. This is good to do in a webby sort of way but any publishing mechanism will suffice. Very good from a security model because you can enforce any rules you wish for who can see what, safe in the knowledge the system can't do any direct damage if it is compromised. There are some excellent Frameworks that make this sort of application pretty secure and mean that database access is handled by something reasonably solid.For what it's worth, I use django and it seems to be interfacing to all kinds of interesting things in this regard. It also maintains the tables for you in a reasonably friendly way which save many hours of sweating over a hot SQL editor.

That set of data is 'watched' by your very secure management element which reacts to it's own local configurations and any particular lump of published data it may have access to, be it your own or other sources ( the air temperature and pressure upwind of you for instance), and it controls your pumps etc via any appropriate mechanism that seems fit for purpose, (One wire, X-10, ZigBee, C-Bus, home built hairy box of wires, proprietary protocol, or whatever).

Now getting an acceptable standard to work in that way is the real problem cos everyone will suggest their system is the one all the others should standardize on and that's a row that can run and run to no great benefit except within islands of standards zealots, which ain't beneficial.

To that end just keeping a list of possible systems is going to be nightmare and that's before you even begin to get into generalized system description stuff.
But as long as we actively welcome competitors then this could be avoided. There will be a strong desire to control this sort of thing but really that is impossible and as long as people write code that they will interface to something better when they recognize it as such when it appears then that should address it.

Reliability is of great importance and also the modes of failure. The UPS is as much an active component of your system as the central heating pump, it would be galling to have both the above components in place, if when the power failed, one couldn't power the other without moving wires in the dark, your reactive controller must recognize that sort of event and respond sensibly, and of course the testing of such a system is going to be long and laborious.
Little microcontrollers do this stuff well and as long as you don't get power crazed into thinking everything needs a GUI it should be pretty simple.
Quite how it's accessed is moot It's tempting to give it a web interface but the how much might you trust a TCP/IP stack without decent security?
Perhaps it can get over http but only be modified over RS232, Many people will have different views, and some will be fairly vociferous about it.

As has been said discussion, here, has been ongoing and as such is as good a place as any to chat about this, people will be understandably cagey about some aspects, and that really is up to them, we can't make anybody do anything, it's they're system but if we can get to a stage where we could make comparative measurements of one or two basic components the issue of chocolate teapots, for example, can become an interesting discussion between a journalist and a computer, rather than having to involve layers of opinion with varying degrees of bias down the tree.

Quite how useful we find such a system might be could really take our breath away when we look back at it in about ten years time.

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KenB
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008, 12:23:05 PM »

Wyleu, List,

Quote
The real issue is an easily exchangeable data packet with some form of generalized definition of what the data is all about.

Pachube (and the Current Cost meter) use an XML description of what the sensor is and what it's sensing.  I believe that it's fairly easy for the microcontroller webserver to create this XML template from ROM, and to insert into it, the temperature (or whatever) readings as dynamic variables.

It's then up to the PC client at Pachube to parse through the XML data and filter out the relevant variables.

This may be like riding a bike to the computer literate uber-gods,  but I shall be taking it one step at a time with my newly arrived Arduino  Cheesy



Ken






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