CHP connection to the Grid

[kingdeacon]

Hello,
I am based on a Farm, and I have a old Perkins Diesel generator (137kva 3 phase)

I collect used cooking oil from food outlets in my local area, I filter the oil and de water it so I can use it to run a few vechiles on.

As I am now getting larger and larger amonts of used veg oil I decided to convert my Perkins generator to run on 100% used cooking oil, The heat produced from the Generator is used for the filtration system of the used oil, plus to heat hot water.

The Electric produced I want to sell back to the grid as I don't have a need for all that power on the farm, the Generator is built to run 24/7 so providing I can collect enough oil it will run all the time.

I'm in the process of being acredited with Ofgem so I can recive ROC's for all electric produced, but from here i'm getting a bit stuck.
Does anyone on here know which electric company is best to sell to for this kind of set up? I have read on here that Good Energy pay a good rate, but was unsure if that was for domestic only?

I have spoke with EDF who so far have been slow to help and respond, they told me they do buy electric but the rate was pretty poor at about 5p per unit plus with loss of the ROC's to, due to it being a commercial set up. There domestic rate they pay was 7.4p I belive.

I hope I can get things sorted soon as I can make the electric right now, and I have plenty of used oil waiting.

Thanks.

Rob.

[Ted]

137kva is going to be outside the scope of any domestic renewables scheme that suppliers have set up for PV, wind or hydro - the largest of which is Ecotricity's which goes to 10kW.

Most other suppliers contract to purchase at reasonable rates only for wind or PV generation and then only for up to 6kW capacity.

I suggest you contact Ecotricity, who are currently offering 12p per unit for all generated inclusive of ROCs, or Ebico who offer 12p per unit exported, and see if they are interested.

http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/renewable-rewards 08000 302 302 
http://www.ebico.co.uk/html/c_microgen.php 0845 4560170

The alternative would be to become licensed to export to the grid directly - but this is very expensive to setup.

Also have you spoken to your local DNO about exporting to the grid?  You will need their prior approval for this size.

[renewablejohn]

Hello,
I am based on a Farm, and I have a old Perkins Diesel generator (137kva 3 phase)

I collect used cooking oil from food outlets in my local area, I filter the oil and de water it so I can use it to run a few vechiles on.

As I am now getting larger and larger amonts of used veg oil I decided to convert my Perkins generator to run on 100% used cooking oil, The heat produced from the Generator is used for the filtration system of the used oil, plus to heat hot water.

The Electric produced I want to sell back to the grid as I don't have a need for all that power on the farm, the Generator is built to run 24/7 so providing I can collect enough oil it will run all the time.

I'm in the process of being acredited with Ofgem so I can recive ROC's for all electric produced, but from here i'm getting a bit stuck.
Does anyone on here know which electric company is best to sell to for this kind of set up? I have read on here that Good Energy pay a good rate, but was unsure if that was for domestic only?

I have spoke with EDF who so far have been slow to help and respond, they told me they do buy electric but the rate was pretty poor at about 5p per unit plus with loss of the ROC's to, due to it being a commercial set up. There domestic rate they pay was 7.4p I belive.

I hope I can get things sorted soon as I can make the electric right now, and I have plenty of used oil waiting.

Thanks.

Rob.

We do an annual tender around all the green electric companies and the best we have found so far is Green Energy.
Careful with your cooking oil as you may not be able to get ROC's. If its veg oil cooking vegetables it will be allowable for ROC's but if you cook meat it then becomes a waste product and not allowable for ROC's.

[David]

Good Energy have a range of options for generation. One of them is a power purchase agreement for generation of over 75kW installed capacity and which can be run so it produces at least several hundred MWh a year. Your generator sounds like it would fit the bill http://www.goodenergy.co.uk/how-to-go-100-green/generate-your-own/commercial-generation/

The question is then whether it fits into their definition of sustainable biogeneration. They have a long document on this at
http://www.goodenergy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/108_biogeneration_policy.pdf which you can read, but my very quick skim of it is that provided transport and a few other things are met waste oil would fit their definition. It would certainly be worth speaking to them about it and seeing if they are interested.

A few other thoughts.

I assume that the generator does not cause noise or fume nuisance to you or others, something like that running 24 hours a day soon becomes very tiring.

Getting it connected to the external system is a job for an electrical engineer and an electrician, not a house wirer. It's a fair number of three bar electric fires. It will need to be properly controlled, both for normal operation and for what happens when there is a fault with the external system. It will involve discussions with the local system operator about whether the system can take it, in the worst case changes may need to be made to the external system. Voltage regulation is often a problem with supplies to farms, your installation may make things better for them by stabilising the local system (they won't even say thankyou if it does), but in the worst case they may need to strengthen their system to cope with the "backwards" electricity.

You will need to consider which control strategy suits you best, automatic (under what conditions) or manual start for example. You will need to consider whether you wish to be able to run it/the farm as an island supply when you want or only run it in parallel with the external system. I would set it up so it can be run as an island supply to the farm, but that does mean a few more complications.

Both collection of the oil and maintenance of the engine will take time and money, if only for spare parts if you are able to repair the thing yourself. Then there is the generator and the electrical part of the setup to look after.

If it is running 24 hours a day you may need to look at using the heat as I suspect you will have more than can be used for filtration and hot water. Perhaps heating sheds for something like organic tomatoes, or piping it elsewhere.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I think keeping oil out of landfill and using it to produce electricity is excellent, but at this scale it has to be done in a thorough way.

[renewablejohn]

kingdeacon

If you already have 3 phase on the farm you should be able to export upto 250kw on a low voltage circuit but you will have to check with your electric grid supplier because farms can be at the end of the line and the cost of upgrading the line would be prohibitive. Also cost in your calculations 2k for the electric company to do the survey to tell you whether your planned installation on the grid is feasible and then another 20k for them to connect your system into their grid.   

 Sounds a rip off  well it is welcome to the world of renewable energy generation 

[kingdeacon]

137kva is going to be outside the scope of any domestic renewables scheme that suppliers have set up for PV, wind or hydro - the largest of which is Ecotricity's which goes to 10kW.

Most other suppliers contract to purchase at reasonable rates only for wind or PV generation and then only for up to 6kW capacity.

I suggest you contact Ecotricity, who are currently offering 12p per unit for all generated inclusive of ROCs, or Ebico who offer 12p per unit exported, and see if they are interested.

http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/renewable-rewards 08000 302 302 
http://www.ebico.co.uk/html/c_microgen.php 0845 4560170

The alternative would be to become licensed to export to the grid directly - but this is very expensive to setup.

Also have you spoken to your local DNO about exporting to the grid?  You will need their prior approval for this size.

Thanks Ted, I will call both Ecotricity and Ebico tomorrow and see what they offer this size set up (if they can)
I have spoken to EDF who are my DNO, and they said we should be able to do it ok and I'm in the process of trying to get one of there engineers here at the farm to see what involved with the enfrastructure. The generator is set up currently as a standby so if power fails it can kick in and power the complete farm with 230v and 415v 3 phase, there is balance boxes (not sure on real name?) that balance the 3 phases, this was all set up a few years ago so it could start large electric motors (so I was told) I hope the cost of being connected does not cost thousands and thousands, as it would be such a shame.

[kingdeacon]

We do an annual tender around all the green electric companies and the best we have found so far is Green Energy.
Careful with your cooking oil as you may not be able to get ROC's. If its veg oil cooking vegetables it will be allowable for ROC's but if you cook meat it then becomes a waste product and not allowable for ROC's.
[/quote]

When I spoke to Ofgem on the phone they said I could get ROC's for use of waste veg oil in a CHP set up, I hope the guy was not wrong with that or it would not be worth it.

[renewablejohn]

Kingdeacon

Check the Ofgem website re ROC's it goes into great detail on why you cannot get ROC's for Biodiesel and Glycerol unless it is a method approved by Ofgem in writing. Even if you do get approval it might only be a fixed percentage of the total ROC's. Hope it does not sound to negative but I know a CHP operator who has been waiting 15 months to get his chipboard approved by Ofgem.

[kingdeacon]

They said they would need a sample of the fuel to test, but as we don't add anything else to it and only remove food particles along with water, it should be ok.

It would be wrong not to be able to set this up, I don't think there is a better way to use the energy in waste cooking oil than a good static engine running 24/7 producing electric. With the cars/vans/trucks I run on used cooking oil I can only cold filter the oil, which at this time of year leaves lots of solid oil waiting for summer before it can be used.
On the static generator set up you can heat the entire full system from the heat normally wasted,hot store room, filtering tanks, filters, main fuel tank.

renewable energy generation, seems like they don't want you doing it almost?

[David]

renewable energy generation, seems like they don't want you doing it almost?

Not on a small scale. All those in power do is spout hot air about wanting to encourage renewables, while adding enough red tape to prevent it actually happening (see past discussions on the subject).

They prefer large companies. The fact that large companies fund political parties and employ friends/family (Mr Brown's brother is a nuclear lobbyist) is purely a co-incidence.

[knighty]

hi kingdeacon

just checking to see if you got anywhere with this idea ?

[Ivan]

One more thing to throw in - CHP is approved by ofgem for ROCs....EVEN IF YOU USE FOSSIL FUEL such as Natural Gas!! So you shouldn't have any problem qualifying under a CHP definition as long as you're using the waste heat. I'd recommend you run the generator during the winter period and use it for heating your buildings - this uses 90-100% of the energy in the WVO, rather than 20% - so it's a much better use of the fuel. If you've really got enough to run it 24/7, consider selling the WVO to people making biodiesel - big oil companies are charging 60-80p/litre for waste oil. Have a look on ebay to see what private sellers are getting.