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Author Topic: "G83 relays" and such  (Read 4699 times)
Ted
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 06:24:02 PM »

Just read the edit to your last message. 

If you "dig it out" via any interface other than a standard one provided by SMA it would pretty certainly invalidate your warranty plus render the entire system non-G83 compliant as the inverter would no longer be 'as tested' by SMA.
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 07:00:53 PM »

Not quite right Ted - you have to inform the DNO within 30 days of connecting a system up to the grid - before or after...

G83 is a guideline - not a law / rule. If you persuade your DNO that your home made over frequency / under freq etc etc etc setup complies with G83, you can connect. But I doubt they will allow it.

However - you could just not tell em. Its a (poxy) 1kw on a gigawatt system - its not going to overload the grid now is it? You just need to be aware that if theres a power cut, and the bloke tries to fix it, and gets zapped by your genny (which cant happen, as an induction motor as genny needs the grid to work...) then you will get the book thrown at you.

There is an alternative - a reverse power relay. If the system attempts to export power, it disconnects. Therefore 'safe'.... worth running past the DNO bod?
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evan
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 08:32:14 PM »

Yup, thanks for the ideas Guy, I'll see what I can get away with.

Um, except wouldn't a "reverse power relay" kind of defeat the object a bit? 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 09:01:35 PM by evan » Logged
Ted
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2009, 08:50:43 PM »

Not quite right Ted - you have to inform the DNO within 30 days of connecting a system up to the grid - before or after...

That's not what the law says. For G83 systems you must inform the DNO either beforehand or at the time of commissioning as per para 22 (2) (c) of the ESQCR 2002. For anything else you MUST get prior approval before connecting. In fact Scottish Power require prior notification even for G83 systems.

Quote from: Scottish Power G83 Application for Connection
This information is to be provided to the DNO prior to the installation of a SSEG
unit(s) in order that a DNO can assess the potential impact that the connection will
have on the Network.

G83 is a guideline - not a law / rule. If you persuade your DNO that your home made over frequency / under freq etc etc etc setup complies with G83, you can connect. But I doubt they will allow it.

G83 is a bit like BS7671 - they are non-statutory but, in actuality, form the basis for 'best practice' that are followed by the relevant authorities.  G83 is a 'recommendation' but I have yet to hear of any DNO that will allow grid connection under the terms of the ESQCR without compliance with it.

This is the relevant part of the ESQCR:

Quote
22.  - (1) Without prejudice to regulation 21, no person shall install or operate a source of energy which may be connected in parallel with a distributor's network unless he -

      (a) has the necessary and appropriate equipment to prevent danger or interference with that network or with the supply to consumers so far as is reasonably practicable;

      (b) has the necessary and appropriate personnel and procedures to prevent danger so far as is reasonably practicable;

      (c) where the source of energy is part of a low voltage consumer's installation, complies with British Standard Requirements; and

      (d) agrees specific requirements with the distributor who owns or operates the network.

    (2) Sub-paragraphs (b) and (d) of paragraph (1) shall not apply to a person who installs or operates a source of energy which may be connected in parallel with a distributor's network provided that sub-paragraphs (a) and (c) of paragraph (1) are complied with; and

      (a) the source of energy does not produce an electrical output exceeding 16 amperes per phase at low voltage;

      (b) the source of energy is configured to disconnect itself electrically from the parallel connection when the distributor's equipment disconnects the supply of electricity to the person's installation; and

      (c) the person installing the source of energy ensures that the distributor is advised of the intention to use the source of energy in parallel with the network before, or at the time of, commissioning the source.
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2009, 09:08:14 PM »

Oh - I dont deny they wont allow connection without compliance - but if you bend the rules a little...

AH - I think this is the subtle difference - 'in addition to the notification required by ESQCR, the installer shall provide details within 30 days...'
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=22&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ensg.gov.uk%2Fassets%2F26_10_2004_ws4_p01_connection_terms_summary_paper_feb_2004.pdf&ei=O0r_SeGEGNu2jAeS9vSVAw&usg=AFQjCNGcwZ6-Yohqw9UDTdR3Xz1Hjrb8TA from here.
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2009, 10:20:42 PM »

What you need to do is advise your DNO before or at the time of commissioning the system to comply with the ESQCR. You subsequently have up to 30 days grace period to provide them with the completed paperwork - the G83/1 Application for Connection and circuit block diagram and possibly a layout plan.  That 30 day period doesn't remove the obligation to tell them about the connection of a generation system before or at the time of commissioning - even if it is just a phone call.
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2009, 11:53:19 AM »

Just in case it may help.....

There are Mains Protection Modules manufactured by (among others) ComAp which are designed to meet the requirements of G59.  As G59 pertains to larger scale power parallelling and subject to more stringent regulation than G83 (because of the sheer amount of power that could be short or long term parallelled with the grid), then I would expect that something like this incorporated into a system would be acceptable to the power companies as providing adequate protection for the network -it's worth asking the question of your utility provider before investing perhaps?

If you need to meet G83 and aren't doing it through an inverter that already has all the necessary features then maybe one of these would do?  Our firm does various products through this manufacturer (don't expect them to be cheap though)  Here's a web link      http://www.ipu.co.uk/engine_info.asp?id=164946
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2009, 12:09:03 PM »

Thanks Graham, I had found those modules as well, wasn't sure if they'd be happy on single phase. 

I'll try the DNO with various options and see what they say. 
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 08:53:27 PM »

Evan
how did things go with your DNO. Not NEDL by any chance?
sean
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2009, 11:39:15 PM »

Evan,
Did you sort out your grid connection? If not, maybe try these contacts:
GP ELECTRONICS
Gerry Pope, Pottery Road, Bovey Tracey, Devon, TQ13 9DS
01626 832670
or
SUSTAINABLE CONTROL SYSTEMS
Nigel Smith, 12 Lewis Way, Peterchurch,Herefordshire. HR2 0SE
01981 551955                                                                                          www.scs-www.com

These chaps have built G83/G59 bespoke grid connection units for induction generator hydro schemes at watermill sites I know of. May be worth a quick chat.



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evan
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2010, 05:51:51 PM »

Evan
how did things go with your DNO. Not NEDL by any chance?
sean


Just checking old messages:

I used a cheap 1 panel 24V grid-connect inverter as a "G83 relay". 
This worked.  However the overall scariness of the approach and a blade problem has led to taking the machine down and re-doing it with an axial flux alternator (connected to a Windyboy inverter). 

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