Can Earthship building techniques be used in main stream construction.

[daftlad]

Can glass bottles, tyres and cob be used as common materials in house building rather than the exception?
The use of cement is down right shocking in modern construction and the end resut is usually a house that no one in thre right mind would want to live in and will probably need major work within 30 years?
Modern houses have no thermal mass so they have no passve solar properties and more often than not they are not orientated south (or some thing is blocking the view to the sun)

I was prompted to start this thread after a question from bayard

I was thinking more of two rows of bottles, top end in, plastered externally both sides (mud? lime?).  The idea is for an insulating wall with low weight and low embodied energy, rather than something to let the light through, but anyway, I should let you get back on topic....

Would this work? (i have no idea)

Your thought and experiences please.
laters

[dhaslam]

The bottles wouldn't be much use for insulation and the wall, excluding the bottles, would be effectively a solid wall without insulation.   Even the best glass has something like ten times the heat loss of a well insulated wall but south facing windows can make a small net gain heat even in winter.   Windows at 20% of floor area on the south side of a house is about the optimum and they should be shaded in summer.    Given a free choice of building materials a single block wall, using low energy materials with thick insulation outside is probably the best option  but I don't think it would pass building regulations in Ireland. 

[Amy]

Passive solar gain combined with heatstore walls behind and good ventilation for summer temp control has to be a way to go

All the earthship type materials and methods are in simplicity and eco costs, streets ahead of mainstream building materials but when you have the majority of homes built by the big developers, the materials supplied by the big merchants and the planning approach handled by jobsworth idiots, ...........it will be mission impossible to change it in the near future.

Maybe if there was a planet holocaust and we started all over again, the need for shelter would out strip the manufacture of materials so natural improvisation would gain momentum.

Few new homes have been built in the last 12 months, yet the anual requirment just to keep pace with demend runs at over 300,000, so when things do kick off again, even more cement, rockwool etc will be made and used

[noelsquibb]

If you are going to do it legally and have it as a proper registered dwelling you are up against building regs ( assuming you've convinced the planning dept ? )
They will want to know the strength and performance of your materials and will only sign it off if you can demonstrate this. So trial mixes and crushing strengths in accredited labs followed by structural calcs from someone with PI insurance. 

Sadly this is why most builds end up following the current process, plus most self builders finances are fairly tight and any that need to borrow to complete the build will not be risking bottles and mud.

I have built a 'cob' barn using the shellet subsoil that was available on the site and mixed it at 20: 1 with OP cement to create a cube that crushed at around the same strength as a thermalite / celcon block.
I knocked up a 500mm wide climbing shutter and used a 15 tonne hymac to load and lift the mix from the mixer to the shutter then climbed a ladder for a few prods to level it out and encourage it into the corners. 10 years later the walls are still standing and looking pretty good -

Ok I used cement but it was left over from various piling and ground anchor projects, so I saved the unused cement from landfill oblivion. I cut a lot of the oak  used in the floor joists and roof structure from nearby trees and generally used whatever was available to me, so I regard the building as vernacular ( just my particular version of vernacular )
The big advantage was that I never had a time constraint. So concept to useful building was about 10 years and if I saw some unwanted resource wherever I was working, either during site clearance or when sub contractors were finished, I was usually able to divert it legally. As a result I have no paperwork to show and the whole thing was done using a little cash and a lot of time.


So if you fancy doing an earthship build ( and I do )  my advice is to build it somewhere where no one will see you ( pretty unlikely these days ) or pretend its a garden 'folly' that is permitted development and not a habitable space, so not needing building regs either.
Once you've built it and everybody has lost interest, then use it discreetly as a dwelling if you can get away with it. For further info on how this can become a lawful dwelling p.m. me.

The barn was done legally as a traditional animal shelter on an agricultural holding and the LA was notified - it took three letters to get them to grudgingly reply that it was acceptable though 

Noel

[daftlad]

My hope was to use tyres for the footings, straw for the north, east and west walls, glass for the south walls and cob for the internal walls, plaster and floors.
I guess it is the footings that building control would have the bigest problem with.
The earthship in Brighton is only single story and i think it has more cement in its walls than they would care to admit, so that can not be used as a blue print.
I think your barn is brill, it looks like your foundations are stone, are they onto concrete? and did you use cement to build them or are they dry stone or lime?
I went to a place in India that as using the 20 to 1 soil to cement mix and they were building some brilliant load bearing stuff, they compacted the bricks, and the soil had alot of clay in it.
I really think we need to figure out how to build in natural materials again because cement is just too energy intensive.
I wonder if Michael Reynolds has done all of the calculations that building control would need, I guess building control would say dfferent soil, do it again.
o hum

[Amy]

I think the problems that builders face is on of trying to build what a LA havent got experience in licencing or inspecting.

@18 years ago when the EU rules on poultry butchery changed from being able to sell turkeys as NYD- New York dressed or 'not yet dressed', .....sold with guts head and feet intact, to one of having to fully process if you wished to produce over 500 a year and sell beyond a 10 mile radius.

In order to acheive this, a new processing facility had to be built to latest standards, as laid down by the LA, food hygene, enviro health etc depts.

The county council LA also falls with in a nat park and the beaurocacy becomes way top heavy. The problems arose when the planners admitted this was al new territory to them and didnt have and guidelines or previous experience. They wouldnt directly follow EU rules and specs as that would make their position redundant, and with .build time running out before the birds needed slaughtering, they made the brave and sensible step of handing responsibility for the design and build inspection to the clients.

Everything from the fall of the drains, the wall coverings to the chiller insulation was left to the client, who has the vested interest of a timely schedule but ballanced with only one chance to get it right, not only for their own sake but as the future blueprint for the LA to then set down to other builders in future.

It worked and everyone was happy. So why do i get the feeling that LAs are sticking their noses into things that dont need treating like regular traditional home builds, and because they know they are out of their depths, why cant they admit it and try learning instead of hindering eco builds

[David]

Earthship Fife gained approval for the building methods and so should be a precedent for jobsworths, at least in Scotland.

It was built to the standards for a dwelling, though it is not used as one due to planning issues.

[daftlad]

I kind of see your point, but.......

The point with the earthship is it mostly uses on site materials so zero transport costs.
A standard design rather than standard design and build centralised definitly is is something that is needed.
Michael Reynolds has come out with standard designs but I am not sure that they are perfect for the British climate and they are very labour intensive.
I guess housing estate building sites are like a factorys, the problem with factory building of houses is transport costs and how do you design thermal mass into a transportable house?
I really don't think that a factory built house competes with a site built house very well.
Transport..... excessive and expensive.
Materials...... specialised, expensive and not local.
I find bespoke buildings difficult, people spent too long standing around scratching there arse5 trying to make decisions which is why they always cost so much more.
just a thought

[billi]

factories    pretty boring

I just found a few good websites for rammed earth / clay building

Sorry some in German

http://www.eartharchitecture.org/index.php?/search/rammed/P1.html

http://www.lehmtonerde.at/english/w3.html

http://www.stabilisedearth.com.au/gallery.html

and a rammed clay stove

http://www.lehmo.at/bilder/index.html

Billi

[Amy]

On a 2 or 3 bed solar passive heatstore rammed earth tyre walled earthship, one or two people could spend several hundreds of hours just ramming soil into the tyre wall.  That part of the build is very labour intensive and cant be mechanised, BUT, you are left with something thats structural and holds heat so does a few major functions.
Its a good use of tyres but need to be brought in as they dont grow in the garden, unlike the soil.

No one design will work in all climates. Santa Fe is different to Britany, so adaptations need to be made.

Having said that, i still think bale or tyre homes should be given priority attention by govs, LAs, archiatects etc, they have a lot to offer

[daftlad]

On a 2 or 3 bed solar passive heatstore rammed earth tyre walled earthship, one or two people could spend several hundreds of hours just ramming soil into the tyre wall.  That part of the build is very labour intensive and cant be mechanised, BUT, you are left with something thats structural and holds heat so does a few major functions.
Its a good use of tyres but need to be brought in as they dont grow in the garden, unlike the soil.

No one design will work in all climates. Santa Fe is different to Britany, so adaptations need to be made.

Having said that, i still think bale or tyre homes should be given priority attention by govs, LAs, archiatects etc, they have a lot to offer

YEP

The Earthship in Brighton has 800 tyres and they recon it takes half an hour to fill each tyre.
Thats 10 weeks for 1 man (a big strong one at that)
I think tyres would make perfect foundations for straw bale construction.
laters

[MR GUS]

There is no reason why ramming of tyres could not be automated (for the ramming part anyhow)! & with a bit of thought the filling part too.

As these sorts of developments are few & far between (compared to estate building) it simply has not been attempted yet! ..given time & inclination someone will, I cannot see it as going on entirely by hand & the mould will only be  broken read improved, ..as & when someone donkey's up a working heath robinson contraption to get minds thinking on the idea.
TBH I reckn it's the sort of thing Brighton university or elsewhere with an earthship house thingy ought to have got on top of years ago,  with the amount of agriculteral / warehousing / workyard equipment we have these days it would be fairly straight forward to bastardize in order to simplify the process of such a labour intensive & integral aspect of these building types!

[dhaslam]

I wonder how good the earthships are.   They have lime finish inside and out which like conventional buildings produces quite a lot of CO2.  They may also need extra insulation.    An alternative would be to take an old ruined building and insulate the outside to a good depth.  With the old 2'2" walls there would be enough heat stored to last about a week and if there are enlarged south facing windows  it would make the most of sunny days in winter.   

[Amy]

Rupert

you cant modulise and factory make thermal mass properties. They have to be an in situ build. The whole idea of earthship is the sweat equity a home builder can provide. This does several things, it makes it cheaper, it makes the design easier, it utilises alternative materials which arnt uniform and dont lend themselves to mass fabrication/assembly, and most of al, ..........this only appeals to people like us, who are more likely to be in tune with our home and envirnoment.

You wont find chavs living in earthships.

[daftlad]

Rupert
Having worked on building sites, big and bespoke i can say that once builders get the sus of a technique it becomes like a factory, my god they can throw those houses up quick.
The factory Idea is intresting but i really can't see how it would work with thermal mass?
Give us some more ideas of specific ideas rather than a general concept.
I started this thread because i believe that mainstream building materials and quality is crappy and and very bad for the environment.
The point about lime versus portland cement is intresting.... As far as i understand it, cement takes alot more energy to make and as it cures it actually produces more co2, i don't think lime does this to anything like the same extent.
So give us some idea of what you are on about and how it would be better for the planet?

laters