Political compass..

[Heinz]

I have NOT taken my little girl out of the morning daily Assembly I could not do it! An act of compulsory workship is mandatory in schools in the UK. When she was four the school sits them down in Assembly and says let us pray, so what does a four year old do? The same as all the other kids prays - if I wanted her to pray I would/could do it before she goes to school - school is about education not conditioning.  

This is exactly where I am with my two. I don't want them having religious carp forced on them, yet how can I have them excluded and becoming the odd ones out?

H

[biff]

Heinz,
      It can be a lonely road.I had to go down to the national school and tell the teacher that my kids did not need religious teaching and not to be quizzing them or putting them under any kind of pressure.So i got a visit from the parish priest and i listened to what he had to say and then i told him nicely that my wife and i wanted no religious interference in their lives.He was ok but assumed that this would be one of many meetings and that he would eventually overcome.But the next time he came back he was politly told that religion was not up for discussion.,These guys are skilled operators and one has to be firm without being nasty.
      The years rolled by and i am a grandaddy a few times over.My kids met all kinds of religious people and were swayed now and then,but they would ask me what i thought if they went to the kingdom hall or some other church with a friend and i said "sure,,no problem,if its what you want" and after a few visits they told me how weird it all was.They had obviously inherited the same genes as me.They can take it or leave it which i consider a good thing.I came in for a lot of stick from my own family but i expected that.I do try to avoid knocking other peoples beliefs.They are entitled to them.
                                          Biff

[RobNute]

Whoops, didn't mean to start a major discussion but..... while we are on it! A few things,

1. The Church of England is possibly the only one that worships in stolen property, nearly all of their churches, cathedrals etc were built by the Catholics! Ironic isn't it, point it out to them regularly, they will thank you for educating / reminding them.

2. If anyone has the right to influence children about religion then it must be the parents, not school teachers.

3. We must respect each others views and beliefs but not be disadvantaged by disagreeing with them.

4. Religion is responsible for the near extinsion of Britains celtic languages, Cornish being the biggest victim as it is no longer spoken in the way that Welsh, Gailic, etc is. Of course when I say religion I mean the established church, you know the one that the Queen is still the head of, she is Gods Chosen Representative on Earth apparently, better not mess with her then.

5. About 10 yrs ago I objected to my daughters primary school inviting a crackpot group called Ambassadors for Christ to take a monthly assembly, they never asked parents so my point was that I did not mind as long as they also invited a Jew, Muslim and maybe a Red Indian or a TOG in to discuss their beliefs as a balance for the kids, apparantly the letter had some govenors in tears ( Why??) and at the next agm I was told that the 1944 schools act states that assembly's have to be broadly or wholly christian. It seems madness to me for groups like these to have any influence over the kids without the parents consent. State religion is still there, maybe a referendum is due on this issue.

6. Australia and New Zealand have less religion in schools but seem to have many more genuine Christians, too many people from the uk seem to get their kids christened, get married in church etc yet are not at all religious, why such hypocrosy - (other countries have no stigma about getting married out of church etc) is it because they were raised with it from birth. I am not anti Christian or any other religion, in fact I spent a couple hours today listening to a man who had just toured the holy lands and showed me pictures of where Jesus did this and Moses did that etc, I do not doubt his belief nor discredit it and his belief has obviously got him through a lot of things but it is for the individual to decide, not a state or a school.

7. Have to go as my 9 year old is nagging!

8. My uncle had a good answer when asked his religion, he was a devout Pre Lactarian, he always put the milk in his tea before the water!

Rob

[M]

M,  But the world is changing fast, and Britons are becoming less religious.

There is also the reason that religion is usefull, and the Muslim comunities can be seen as holding there comunities together as they strive into the modern era.

As i said, i hold good discussions with the Muslims, and their Genes are important to them as to my eyes they are still thinking Tribal.

Scares me that the Western, so called Christian world, is getting a weaker Gene pool, obese etc etc.  My Mrs allways goes on about the Western worlds ever Gene pool problems.

In blunt terms, 'How long before we can not put a Fit and Active Army together?'
  

Clockman, I agree about the community side. I wish we could have the community side of religion, without the religion. I don't know exactly what's happened to me over the last 10 years, but I've come to recognise that community spirit is so very, very important. And thoroughly enjoy chatting with neighbours, friends etc. This site is in essence a community that celebrates renewables.

I wish there was still a way of bringing most people together to enjoy each others company one day a week. However, I have no time for religion, nor its way of controlling the masses through fear (believe in us or else).

I like the idea of mass communal meetings in schools to foster community spirit, however I don't believe there should be any religious component, as young children are easily manipulated by mass movements (Justin Bieber anyone?) and wish to fit in.

I think I have similar views to Biff on this (sorry Biff if I've misunderstood your recent post), I could easily 'slag' off christianity if asked by a child, and quote bible stories and contradictions, lecture on the mass extermination hiding behind the 'lovely' story of Noah's Ark etc. But then I too would be guilty of manipulation. If children are allowed to slowly and quietly absorb information, they usually come to a balanced conclusion.

We 'lie' to our kids about Father Christmas (hope I haven't let the cat out of the bag!), and many other silly stories, but I feel that promoting religion to under 12's, even under 18's is unwarranted.

Mart.

[clockmanFR]

Hi Mart,
We do not give our kids any forced RE, (Religious Education) but we do try to set a moral example.

When my eldest asks about Jesus, we just say he was a nice chap desperately trying to pull humanity together by peacefull example, it worked to a certain extent, but the powers that be in those times did not like it and they got rid of him. But his ideas of peace and brotherly living live on.

Father Christmas, is the Spirit of Christmas a time of giving and receiving, (small non gratuitous gifts) and celebrating the new year, the spring when are food will grow and the birth of a nice chap who tried to put the world to rites.
I also tell them the true story, of the Bishop of Demray, approx 200-400AD (spelling may be wrong) on the Lycian coast, now the southern Turkish coast, (I skippered yachts along the coastline). Who, when he found out that an honest family had lost their dad and husband in a storm at sea, The local priest anonymously throw 2 bags of gold down the chimney of the house because the family had lost everything.  

Children are precious they are the future, gentle guidance by all means, but it should be balanced.

Mart, "God was not a Democrat".  

[rondurrans]

Did not really want to reply to this but I feel compelled:-

clockmanFR your comments..……..”we do try to set a moral example…………they are Protestant……..” They are NOT Protestant they are children – why would you want to label them? Should we not educate them and let them make up their own mind?  

You are systematically conditioning their minds with the ridiculous comment “When my eldest asks about Jesus, we just say he was a nice chap desperately trying to pull humanity together by peaceful example, it worked to a certain extent, but the powers that be in those times did not like it and they got rid of him. But his ideas of peace and brotherly living live on.”  
 
Your answer to a reasonable question like this should be “…certain people believe that a virgin gave birth to the son of god and they named him Jesus, however to believe this you will need to have ‘faith’ there is NO evidence to support this proposition. Also, this may seem incredible, but they killed him and guess what he came back from the dead! There are allegedly thousands of examples of messiah type individuals who have come back from the dead and what you really need to do is check out the evidence, or you could be just like me and be lazy and just accept this hypothesis verbatim and once again let blind faith be your saviour……..”

[Richard Owen]

There are thousands of examples of messiah type individuals who have come back from the dead

Is there an 'allegedly' missing from that sentence?

[biff]

This is the difficulty with religion,Its self inflamatory,Like the red vestas match,You rub it a little and it breaks out in flames and consumes reason and compassion in equal measures.Does it not sound like something so dangerous that it should be banned forever,??
                                                                                             Biff

[clockmanFR]

rondurrans,
We live in a Republic State, France, who's normal religious concepts are Catholic. Even though the schools here do not do the RE bit. The general comunity expect the children to follow catholic tradition. So saying that we are Protestant was not a lie, however we do not wish for our boys to follow the catholic doctrine of confirmation at such an early age. As i said we will let them decided.

I said what i said about about Jesus, i did not infer virgin birth, or son of God or a physical raising from the dead.
Nor did i mention anything to do with other peoples faith.

Sorry, I could not possibly tell my lad your statement.....“…certain people believe that a virgin gave birth to the son of god and they named him Jesus, however to believe this you will need to have Faith there is NO evidence to support this proposition. Also, this may seem incredible, but they killed him and guess what he came back from the dead! There are thousands of examples of messiah type individuals who have come back from the dead and what you really need to do is check out the evidence, or you could be just like me and be lazy and just accept this hypothesis verbatim and once again let blind faith be your saviour……..”

What about Father Christmas?

Biff its banned.!!!!

[rondurrans]

clockmanFR I genuinely respect your views, however I am confused by your comment regarding letting them decide when yesterday you stated:-

"Interestingly are boy's go to Private schools, No not like UK private lot, but here, pay a bit extra for extras at school and the state still fund the school, and they are called Catholic schools, but no RE lessons, No Assemblies with hymns. And getting ready for the first children's Confirmation is done outside school hours. Our boys don't go as they are Protestant and the boy's can make up their own mind when they are ready"

Maybe I am  missing something here but you are making up their minds for them by stating they are Protestant!  

[biff]

 

[Heinz]

I think it's time for a bit of this, certainly cheered up my teabreak 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af9EHtQMMc4

H

[rondurrans]

Thanks Heinz blinking brill...........

[clockmanFR]

rondurrans, The French state, well their officials, assume that England is protestant, as one Mayor once said to us "England is not catholic?" and on their paper work they require a reason.

Well i thought this Forum was good.
But now in this string, and in only 7 pages we have discussed POLITICS, RELIGION, and SEX.

Any one want to discuss the merits of ramjet technology, then we can get biff to the shops quicker and mart to Mars.

 

[Baz]

Eh, what's this about confirmation being Catholic? I was confirmed in Canterbury Cathederal but nobody told me the Archbishop had converted overnight. Maybe Rob told the cops about the building having been nicked from the Pope's boys.