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Author Topic: Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex  (Read 31926 times)
EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2009, 10:00:36 PM »

All of the below have the required IEC61646 certification.  ....

Excellent.  Thanks for passing on your research.

Each controller will work on its own relative to the settings it using. You need sep controllers where the Vmp's dont match very well.

Yes.  It's also useful to have separate chargers from the point of view of redundancy and also for mixed technology like solar/wind/hydro.  I don't know but I also suspect that a number of small chargers will be cheaper than one big one.

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All chargers throttle back as the battery fills. Its that or over charge the bats.

Not necessarily, as you say in the next sentence:

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The thing to do is have a system that monitors the charging & when that stage is met to turn loads on to use the excess power. You can do this with a FM80 Outback controller or an controller with a suitable system.

That's really my point; the "suitable system" turning on loads can usefully be separate from the power source (ie., the MPPT voltage/current converter) particularly if it knows how to make good use of the energy around the house and is part of the house's general control system anyway dealing with matters like not starting the freezer while the microwave is running or turning off the car charger while the freezer does start.

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Oh & its the battery that controls how much charge is accepted not the controller. Power is drawn not pushed.

I suspect that's, at best, a confusing way of looking at it.
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Justme
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2009, 10:15:43 PM »


I suspect that's, at best, a confusing way of looking at it.

Ok look at it this way.

If it was the charger controlling it doubling the charger amps would half the charge time (and we all know it does not) PLUS a 100 amp charger would actually do 100amps for the full cycle & not tail off as the battery fills. Even simple car type non stage chargers do this.
 

My comments re chargers throttling back still stands. Even stupid chargers will up the power if a load is added cos the battery DOES NOT supply any loads whilst charging till the total available power from the charge source is used up first. Thats why with solar you want all your static loads on during your peak production. You save on charging losses.

Yes you could get a bunch of small chargers for the price of one good one (mine was over £500). But you also get less features & settings so like most things you pays your money & make your choices. For me the smaller ones could not do the high volts (over 100vdc) I wanted & would not be upgradeable to a much larger system when I go to 48v.
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Navitron solar thermal system
30 x 58mm panel 259L TS
1200watts solar 120vdc
FX80 Solar controller
Victron 12v 3000w 120a
200w (250w peak) 12v turbine as a tester
6kva genny
6 x 2v cells 1550amp/h 5C
24 x 2v cells 700amp/h 5C
Total bank 4350 amp/h @12v
Outtasight
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2009, 01:39:43 AM »

Thanks guys!

Here's my generating tally.  The first one shows total energy use.



This one focuses in on solar as a proportion of total electric use.



This last one shows actual solar generation on its own plus the lifetime offset from the grid.



The really big 4kWh spike a couple of days ago was me running the fridge-freezer for 24 hours on battery / solar only.  Drained the bank to about 80% DoD so won't be doing that often...

In my case, the system evolved and grew out of a simple 4A on-off controller to a 10A on-off controller and then one 15A Morningstar at 12V and then another Morningstar at 12V and then both converted to 24V to allow more PV power to be used as they are limited to 15A at 12V or 24V.  And yes, the main reason now for two controllers is both capacity and mis-matched arrays with very different Vmp ratings that could not be optimised on a single controller.

The MPPT-15 can do load diversion to the load terminals but only up to 15A current limited and has to be programmed by the serial port to do this non-standard behaviour. 

I'm waiting to see what the new Morningstar Tristar MPPT is like.  This will do 60A at 48V and can take arrays of up to 150Voc.  But I'd rather keep the DC side at under 60V as it makes DC wiring less problematic (cheaper) and I tried running the amorphous array in triplets for a max Voc of 75V (capped to about 68V with some bodging to protect the controllers that only go up to 75Voc).  It didn't really work out so I went back to 35V.

Various bits of the arrays get shaded by the roof eves, trees, and even the overhead wire to the garage at times of the day and I found overall yield was better at 35V because when you have a triplet part shaded it effectively takes the whole triplet out of the array.  If you have one of a pair part shaded then you only lose a pair in the array.  My amorphous panels are quite shading resistant as the cells are long strips that run the length of the panel so a spot shadow (like a leaf) doesn't shade a whole cell (like it does on the traditional panels).

Apart from buying a more capacious charge controller (or a SunnyBoy 1100LV) I might redeploy the excess amorphous panels so that some are partly oriented for early morning light and others are oriented for late afternoon light.  That way, I can create a passive tracked system.  I can't use the peak output of all the panels but I can extend the generating day...  The big Sharp panels probably will obscure the direct winter sun on the little Kyocera panels but I only installed them this summer so it hasn't been a problem yet.  The frames that they are on point them almost straight up anyway so they mostly work off of either direct overhead summer sun or diffused light from clouds.  This gives me some variability in collection as the big Sharps point at the the February solar altitude for maximum output on rare clear days but the others are all at a lower angle for either summer sun or diffused light collection.  Playing with a few panels in different weather it soon became clear that on a cloudy day the best power is from the panel facing the bulk of the sky rather than the invisible sun.  The wall mounted ones can be adjusted as they are mounted using brass hinges so by changing the stays (screwing the stay hinges to different positions on the wooden stay) I can change the panel angles.  But I liked the idea of the big BP one being a sort of roof for my patio door.

I don't expect any real output between November and January as the sky is mostly very dark and the direct sunlight at 15 degrees elevation in mid December is so weak as to be mostly useless (over 65% atmospheric absorption).  The graphs are a little mis-leading though as during the time from December to July, progressively more and more PV came on-line.  So this winter will be marginally better than last.

I'm not really that bothered about return on investment... I'm just doing this for fun.  In my view it actually has cost me nothing because I don't have to drive 50 miles a day to my old office.  That saved me about £200 a month in petrol so all I did was invest my petro-dollars in renewables rather than blow it on booze and holidays  angel

I manually load optimise at the moment... I let the bank charge on priority in the morning and when one or more of the chargers starts blinking that it's in absorption mode, I go and switch the computer room over from grid to solar power by swapping the input plug on the UPS.  I toyed with doing this automatically (I might still try) as the Morningstars do have a data logging and realtime output that the PC could read and with a bit of Visual Basic and a USB relay driver from Maplins I could get the PC to manage its own load by selecting the UPS input.  As Sharkey pointed out to me though, you need to be careful switching the AC to big inductive loads (the UPS is line interactive and has a big transformer) as a mis-matched phase on a change-over relay will cause a kick-back that can blow up stuff.  You need to let the transformer rest for a second (to let its magnetic field decay) before connecting the mis-matched phase.

If you use two relays programmed with a delay you then also need to consider relay failure modes (welded contacts) that could allow both AC sources to meet and BANG!..

The new Tristar is especially interesting as it will have a direct Ethernet interface (rather than serial) so with a wi-fi transmitter, I can have the PC talk to it without running any more wires around the house.  Wi-fi transmitters usually run off of 12V DC so it's easy to power them from the solar system directly.

I'm toying with the idea of using a 3kVA site tool transformer to step the 230VAC to 110VAC and feed that by a change-over socket to the immersion heater upstairs.  Again, it's because I've only got a 1kW inverter.  The immersion heater is a regular 3kW type so it's too big as a load for my system but if you run it at 110V it only consumes about 600W so would make a good diversion load on sunny days.  That would pre-heat the water before the main heating cycle at night, saving some of the 5kWh grid power it takes to heat 100L of water.
There's plenty more toys in the box...  bike

The Japanese have been going solar for decades.  My wife's nan's house has the bones of a solar water heater on the roof and I've even seen a monks house at a temple with one on it.  PV is taking off now as well but you see loads of water systems all over the place when you travel by train.  I even saw a PV bus shelter that powers a hotel hot spa complex and astro observatory.





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http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
kristen
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2009, 07:03:37 AM »

Yes the CGT is a big issue now for home workers.
I'll tell Gordon & Darling that they are welcome to the CGT on a couple of sq.feet that the 6MW turbine's mast will sit on!!
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kristen
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2009, 07:13:26 AM »

"In my view it actually has cost me nothing because I don't have to drive 50 miles a day to my old office.  That saved me about £200 a month in petrol so all I did was invest my petro-dollars in renewables rather than blow it on booze and holidays"

Excellent concept.  Maybe employers could with some sort of pound-for-pound encouragement of green home improvements for home-workers, based on their petrol savings.

"you see loads of water systems all over the place when you travel by train."

When I lived in Japan (70's) the house had a solar thingie on the roof.  Filled with water in the morning, drained down into the "tub" in the evening, and then a fire lit under it for the bath.  So any gain from solar contributed.  Given that starting point getting the populous to move on to more sophisticated Solar can't have been all that hard Smiley
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2009, 07:26:02 AM »

Really nice thread must read it in more detail soon. Apologies for being busy recently.....
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
fizzy
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2009, 08:05:58 AM »

All looks good but whats the crime like around your way? They are starting to get nicked all over the place and yours look 'liftable'. Sorry to be a downer but 20 years in steel and scrap metal have left me rather less than sanguine about crime prevention issues.
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Justme
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2009, 08:23:23 AM »


I'll tell Gordon & Darling that they are welcome to the CGT on a couple of sq.feet that the 6MW turbine's mast will sit on!!

It might be more than you think  Tongue

Garden would be less tha £1 per sq.ft & prime developement land poss £1000's.
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Navitron solar thermal system
30 x 58mm panel 259L TS
1200watts solar 120vdc
FX80 Solar controller
Victron 12v 3000w 120a
200w (250w peak) 12v turbine as a tester
6kva genny
6 x 2v cells 1550amp/h 5C
24 x 2v cells 700amp/h 5C
Total bank 4350 amp/h @12v
kristen
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2009, 08:26:21 AM »

I'll be thrilled if its £1,000 per sq.ft - there are several acres of it, and I'll swap Gordon a sq.foot for the business giving me free leccy until they carry me out of here in a box!
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Outtasight
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2009, 11:00:11 AM »

All looks good but whats the crime like around your way? They are starting to get nicked all over the place and yours look 'liftable'. Sorry to be a downer but 20 years in steel and scrap metal have left me rather less than sanguine about crime prevention issues.

Yeah I worry about that too.  We've had a few cases of people lifting lead from school roofs and so on round here too.  As solar gets more popular it's bound to become more of a target for the crimmos. At least my "patio roof" ones are quite high up (needs a proper roof ladder to get access to the wall bolts).  I'm gonna start checking into what insurance cover you can get for them.

You can't let fear of crime stop you though (unless it's really bad in your area!).  It's no different to having tools in your garage/shed or nice garden furniture.

Ideally, I'll put the big ones up on the house roof where they'd get less shading from trees but it was a stretch to get them on the garage roof (took four of us as I'd pre-assembled the whole thing on the ground).  I've got an IP CCTV camera on the garage area that records to the comms PC upstairs (to keep an eye out for the kids that drink / smoke and light camp fires on my drive) so hopefully that will help.  As I work at home and my wife is always at home (life of luxury  Roll Eyes ) they'd have to steal the things from practically under our noses.

I think I'll Dremmel my name and post code into the frames...

Right now I'm more worried about the big pair flying off the roof by itself.  It weighs 32kg and maybe another 15kg for the frame and then is weighed down with bricks and is tethered by a steel cable to a roof joist girder but I'm gonna tether it to a second joist at the front to make sure... The first of the autumn storms is coming this week (if you believe the Met office).  I might even get round to grounding the frames in case they get struck by lightning  whistlie

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http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
Outtasight
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2009, 11:23:06 AM »

Bummer... insurance companies are making new exclusions for turbines and solar panels... theft, damage from high winds / hail.  Why do we even bother paying these criminals their policy fees? 

http://www.allianz.co.uk/retailebroker/assets/pdfs/new/may09/ACPER1202-6%20Home%20Comforts%20Customer%20Newsletter%20May%2009.pdf
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http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
Ivan
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2009, 09:38:10 PM »

Kristen, The taxman can't stop your company investing in some backup power (especially if it's imperative that your servers stay online all the time)....and he should be congratulating you on spending over the odds on a renewable form of power. He doesn't need to know that a grid-tie inverter stops producing power when the grid fails. The only downside is that any revenue generated would be taxable and belong to the business, although it could be handed over to you in lieu of the power consumed by your servers (again, taxman won't know how much they do consume).

Outasight:  Insurance - stop paying the premiums, and put the money into a savings account and use that to pay yourself in the event of a claim. These days, insurance companies consider 100% of your premium to be their profit. If you make a claim, they will surcharge your insurance in future years to reclaim that money, and as they all operate in a cartel these days, you can't go somewhere else and get a cheaper deal (you have to declare any previous claims). It's immoral and uneconomical
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Brandon
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2009, 10:07:03 PM »

I couldn't agree more Ivan, have a pat on the back!
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changing the world, one roof at a time...

"We can't be B&Q astroturfers. That's one conspiracy theory too far. You should cut down on the pot." - Wookey
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2009, 08:59:55 PM »

Still pondering the next stage of my solar system...

Installing a grid tie inverter seems pretty easy but there's all the red tape that seems pretty troublesome.  I got a quote for the SunnyBoy 1100LV or rather a quote for a modified WindyBoy 1100LV...

Talked to some suppliers (including a certain Navitron bunch  Wink ) but all said "Nope, the SunnyBoy 1100LV is discontinued".  Then I tried the UK distributor for SMA and they said actually the WindyBoy 1100LV is identical to the SunnyBoy except that it says Windy on the front and has even the same firmware but it runs in turbine mode instead of PV MPPT mode!  The daft part is that the setting isn't user programmable (but for £50 they can oblige...)

Now the price of this 1kW grid tie inverter is about the same as a 3kW pure sine off-grid inverter and if I persisted with off-grid, it would mean I could run the fridge-freezer and a washing machine and a regular kettle off of solar power... but I'd need LOTS more battery capacity.  And batteries are expensive.

I've seen an eBay ad for some very cheap industrial 2V 1600Ah cells (like £65 each) but I'd need 12 of them - about 2 pallets worth!!!  Oh and they weigh 100kg each, so that's 1200kg of batteries.... in a three bed-semi living room........ Not even I'm that stoopid.  wackoold

They can go in the old coal-shed.  We just keep junk and stuff in there and it was originally designed as a facility for storing household energy  whistlie
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http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
AndyB
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2009, 06:49:58 AM »

Hi Outtasight, great to read you post and to see the pics. I'm like you my system is always in pieces and is being rebuilt. In some ways its better in doesn't run 100% as then there is no challenge.

As another take on this, we all must have very understanding partners with all these wires and bits around our houses. My wife went away for the weekend and the first thing she said to me when she walked through the door was " not another ******wire" I had promised the data wire that ran through the house to my laptop for the last 5 months would be removed but alas i added another..........

Maybe an applaud should go to our long suffering partners

Andy
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