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Author Topic: Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex  (Read 37494 times)
guydewdney
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« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2009, 11:25:08 PM »

<gloat mode on>

9568 units made so far (about 14 / 16 months)

so much leccy being made - that am switching on 1kw heaters in the kitchen.....


<gm off>
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Outtasight
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« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2009, 11:09:59 PM »

Trust the hydro-guy to rain on my parade...

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« Reply #92 on: February 10, 2010, 09:35:04 PM »

After spending most of January brushing snow off the panels only to expose them to a near black sky before trudging indoors to bask in the glow of the battery charger, the Sun has finally started to put in an appearance once again. So the house lights have gone back on to full time off grid operation.

This week has seen some big changes though.  I won a pair of 80W BP380U panels on eBay for £253.  I couldn't put them outside as I've yet to make the mounts for them and it started snowing again today.  So they are propped up in the patio windows on the inside and were connected directly to the battery during a long bulk charge (no risk of over charging the pack today as I'd used quite a lot yesterday).

The other reason why the new panels were bypassing the charge controller is because the little 15A beastie is now bursting at the seams, with over 1kW already crammed into its 400W input  whistlie.  It started cutting out in the afternoon sun... massively overloaded, it couldn't throttle back the current and took to sulking instead (I'd had this last February when I'd overloaded the first controller).  Nothing for it then...  New controller time!

Finally, after months of delays and shortages, I've managed to get hold of a new Morningstar Tristar MPPT 60A controller (or at least will have done by Friday, hopefully).  Just in time for weekend tinkering... Wassat dear, something about a romantic weekend?  Sure, pass me that screwdriver will ya?  Grin

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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2010, 09:46:58 AM »

The other reason why the new panels were bypassing the charge controller is because the little 15A beastie is now bursting at the seams, with over 1kW already crammed into its 400W input

What this chap does (or did, his system's evolved a bit and I've lost track) is point some of his panels east and some west to get a longer day within the capabilities of his charge controller.

Thinking about it a bit - you could point the panels which bypass the charge controller east on the assumption that the battery wouldn't be fully charged early in the day anyway (and if it is then we'll call it an equalization charge).
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Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »

Outasight

Is there any chance you could cobble together a circuit diagram? Would be interesting to learn where the electric string goes!

cheers
Paul
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Outtasight
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« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2010, 12:07:21 PM »

What this chap does (or did, his system's evolved a bit and I've lost track) is point some of his panels east and some west to get a longer day within the capabilities of his charge controller.

Thinking about it a bit - you could point the panels which bypass the charge controller east on the assumption that the battery wouldn't be fully charged early in the day anyway (and if it is then we'll call it an equalization charge).

I've sort of got that situation now.  If I'd aligned all my panels for peak output, I'd have probably set fire to the little controller  whistlie.

Some panels are at very shallow angles to optimise them for summer and others are near vertical to optimise for winter while others are sort of at 45 degrees to balance winter and summer output.  Admittedly, all are pointing due south and this year I might angle some to favour late / early afternoon. Morning is a bit pointless as there's a row of tall trees in the E to SE so I get a lot of problems with shading in the morning.

Here's my new BP panels propped up in the patio window. 



Really must get round to building a frame as soon as it gets warmer outside.  Having gert big solar panels in yer patio windas does have one side benefit... They absorb more heat than the curtains and act like thermal radiators on a sunny day, making juice and heating the room at the same time...  Bonus!

I'll get round to updating my circuit diagram soon and post it.  It's changed a bit since I last did one for the post about me "Fridgenstein" experiment.
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« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2010, 11:08:32 PM »

It's a bit of a monster circuit diagram... see the attachment (fits nicely on a A3 sheet!).  It's all a "temporary" installation, honest guv'.

The Tristar MPPT-60 and its optional meter front turned up Friday, early AM.


Mmmmm Shiny.

Got it all installed on the wall and only demolished one bit of plasterboard corner than will need some plaster patching (ahem...).



I was pootling around in the local HW store looking for rubber grommets to go in the HUGE knockouts (wot don't knock out without a 50lb lump hammer  Angry) and saw some neat two slot consumer unit-type-things and next to 'em...  100A dual pole two slot MCBs!  I'd been wondering how to upgrade the existing disconnect switches that I had (puny 20A automotive ones) and had toyed with the idea of 45A cooker switches.  But 45A still isn't enough for a 60A charge controller.  These 100A MCBs are ideal though (assuming they'll actually work at 24V-46V DC).

I'd never got round to putting disconnects on the PV inputs to the charge controllers before but as there were two sets of these things in the shop, I went for it.  So I used one double pole MCB to break the two PV inputs to the two controllers and the other one to break the outputs of the controllers to their fused battery connections.  Of course, normally both breakers will be closed and I'd try not to go opening them when under heavy load (that's how one old 16A switch burned out).  I'd looked at "proper" solar DC disconnects but they are very expensive and I don't actually need switches rated for switching 400V DC.

I uprated all the battery wiring to the controllers (10mm2 all round for the old 15A SunSaver and 20/25mm2 for the new TriStar)...  Pity that the feeder from the junction box outside is only 6mm2. Another project to take care of before it gets too sunny  whistlie.

And with a bit of the magic yellow thing in the sky...



THAR SHE BLOWS!!!!

Shame about the cheap yellow rubber buttons wot you have to stab quite hard to make work properly.  And the charge status LEDs that don't come anywhere near the window in the front plate so you can't see them properly from anywhere other than straight-on in front of the thing...  Might have to fettle that when the thing's been "run-in".



* Solar system 2010-02-15.gif (118.41 KB, 1334x2050 - viewed 548 times.)
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Paulh_Boats
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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2010, 11:42:43 PM »

Outtasight,

Thanks for the diagram update - it makes the National Grid look simple  Wink

How do you switch the lights from solar to grid?   Also how do the two controllers react when both feeding the batteries?


I've been toying with the idea of a backup system that steals a bit of power from my Soladin 600 DC feed - a simple PWM controller will ignore the voltage variations due to the MPP tracking and present a steady current load. So in turn the Soladin should find the optimum load point for the remaining current??

The Prostar 30 looks good, but its not cheap whereas a SunSaver might do all I need (also have an ex-equipment SunGuard 4 in the gadget box).

I have a few ideas of running the slow cooker and bread maker from solar to establish off grid independence....similar for emergency lighting.

cheers
Paul
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 11:53:43 PM by Paulh_Boats » Logged
Outtasight
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« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2010, 01:39:48 AM »

Hi Paul,

Where you see a pair of sockets (solar and grid) with a dotted line to a device or circuit, that's just a manual change-over socket.  Nothing more than a 13A plug that can be moved between two 13A sockets.  Avoids having any "dodgy" switches or relays with different phase mains on it which can cause magnetic recoil in transformers if you switch too quickly between sources.  By using a 13A plug/socket it also makes a convenient 3 pole switch that is guaranteed to take more than 1 second to change over so there's no risk of a magnetic recoil surge from the load.

The two controllers co-operate just fine.  They are programmed for the same voltage set points and both have the same remote temperature readings for compensation.  Mostly, they both put out current into the battery but in the final stages of charging, the weaker one (by reason of PV input or output capacity) will sometimes defer to the other one.

So, if the battery and loads are only demanding 5A and both controllers are receiving at least 5A of PV input, one might throttle back to 0A (but not go negative) and the other will sit at 5A.  If neither can deliver the full 5A, then they'll do what they can (e.g. 3+2) as they both want to maintain the same voltage.

If one goes into float before the other then the one that is trying to "float" at a lower voltage will just sit at 0A (again, it won't go negative) until the other one gives up "absorbing" and then they'll both sit at float level.  When I used flooded batteries I used to set just one controller to do equalise charges as that way you didn't get too many equalise charges in a month (it was programmed on a 28 day cycle or after a >70% discharge).  They didn't communicate though so you couldn't tell one to not do an EQ because the other had already done one, so I disabled EQ charges on the other.

It's not an issue with my current gel batteries as they don't need equalisation charges anyway.

A slow cooker might be harder to power than you think.  A typical slow cooker is about 350W and might have to run for 4 hours.  That's a lot of battery juice (if the PV can't keep up).  That's about 64Ah at 24V.

By contrast, I often use a mini toaster oven (450W for 5-10 mins) or a kettle (950W for 3 mins) or a automatic egg steam boiler (350W for 10 mins) or the rice cooker (350W for 20 mins)...  None uses more than 5Ah so even if it's cloudy or early in the morning, I can use them and the PV will put it back quite quickly.

Only on really clear blue sky days can I consider the immersion heater over to solar power (650W for 2-3 hours).  The battery has to be in a high state of charge and I have to keep an eye out for cloudy weather coming so as to make sure that the PV is taking most (if not all) of the strain with the battery just filling in the gaps.

Putting a PWM controller on the same PV input as the MPPT of the Soldin might wig it out.  I had problems with one experiment where I had too much voltage on the input of my SunSaver with amorphous panels in triplets (the open circuit voltage got too close to the 75V limit of the controller).  So I devised a voltage limiter to apply a load across the PV when it was swept by the MPPT sweep.  This clamping of the PV open circuit voltage to about 65V confused the hell out of the MPPT software and it started doing weird things (locking on to non-maximum power points at odd voltages), so I gave up and went back to just pairs of panels.

A simple PWM controller (like the 12/24V ProStar) can't handle the high input voltages of a Soladin PV string.  Only MPPT controllers are designed to work at higher PV voltages (75V to 150V).  I believe the Soladin needs at least a 48-60V nominal array to work.  A 48V ProStar would do though (if using a 48V nominal array) but then you'd need a 48V battery bank and a 48V inverter to do something useful (like run a slow cooker) from it.  Those cheap recycled 3kW UPS inverters you sometimes see on eBay often run from 48V.

Trouble is, the ProStar controllers only use PWM throttling when in their absorption or float phase.  In the bulk phase they connect the PV to the battery directly and so try to push as much current as the PV can deliver into it (maybe with PWM current limiting if you overload the input - the ProStar is rated for up to 25% overload).  If that doesn't wig out the Soladin, I don't know what would  Wink.
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guydewdney
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« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2010, 08:11:07 AM »



This is in your living room? You arn't married are you!  Shocked Grin

A good place to find cheap big FOAD switches is fleabay - look under 3 phase switches - no one wants second hand big three phase stuff, I got a pair of 200+ amp switches in boxes for about a fiver - lockable too - so good for the G83 compliance.
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Outtasight
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« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2010, 06:26:06 PM »

Quite happily married... but it's probably safest if small children don't come to visit.  Can't have toddlers chewing the battery posts...
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« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2010, 06:34:59 PM »

the ProStar controllers only use PWM throttling when in their absorption or float phase. In the bulk phase they connect the PV to the battery directly

Well that's knock the ProStar idea on the head. Tell me please the TriStar does the job properly  Grin

cheers
Paul

And thanks for the great applaud worthy reply!

EDIT: Just read the TriStar manual and its the dogs doo-dahs. Bulk charging is direct also.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:26:15 PM by Paulh_Boats » Logged
StBarnabas
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« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2010, 10:23:21 PM »

Quite happily married... but it's probably safest if small children don't come to visit.  Can't have toddlers chewing the battery posts...
Guy must have a wife like mine! For me it would be totally inconceivable to have such overt electronics in a living area. Is your Wife an Electrical Engineer?
Sean
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billi
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« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2010, 10:38:59 PM »

Quote
Guy must have a wife like mine! For me it would be totally inconceivable to have such overt electronics in a living area. Is your Wife an Electrical Engineer?
Sean

We all know Outtasight is a clever guy , and i expect he has something like that  to calm her down  Grin

Billi


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« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2010, 11:01:43 PM »

Billi
have an applaud! Made me laugh!
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