navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
UK's most popular Renewable Energy Forum February 09, 2012, 07:46:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Yingli Green Energy's PV Module Ranks No.2 in TUV Rheinland Energy Yield Test | Navitron Solar Showers at Glastonbury for Year 5! | Lights go on in Sierra Leone
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 ... 16   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex  (Read 32057 times)
Paulh_Boats
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2764



« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2010, 09:12:54 PM »

Outasight,

Ooh err misses, you have sexy graphs.  Grin

BTW You can get 29p per kW generated OFF GRID with a non-MCS system. I'll PM the details.

cheers
Paul
Logged
Outtasight
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2010, 12:08:39 AM »

Thanks for the tip-off...  I'm on the case!

Witness the almost properly installed new (old recycled) Navitron supplied OFGEM Total Generation Meter!  It arrived zeroed and reprogrammed to show 0.1kWh units, making it more useful than the usual setting of showing whole kWh only.



I screwed it down to a chopping board I got at a car boot sale a couple of years ago that I was saving for a bird table but block board isn't very strong against weather so it's now a meter panel. 

The meter has HUGE holes for fat 100A meter tail wires that then block up the hole with their insulation and make the thing safe.  Trouble is, with only 2.5mm2 wire going in, the holes are wide open to small fingers.  Luckily the RCD single size patress box is the right size to cover up the holes and then the wires to the meter can just pass though the box without being exposed at all.  The fused RCD spur unit has a cable grip output for the 4 way socket that divides up to all the other circuits.

These RCD units are much more expensive than plug-in types (almost £28 compared to £7).
Some day when the CD rack moves elsewhere it might even get fixed on to the wall rather than propped up against the patio window...



Let's hope my application for ROCs & REGOs is accepted and I can get on the FIT scheme next month.
Logged

http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
Paulh_Boats
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2764



« Reply #122 on: March 17, 2010, 02:53:16 PM »

Outtasight,

Nice job - join the wait-and-see club lol.

I wonder if Ofgem will inspect all these systems, but its the elecy company's responsibility to make FIT payments so the whole thing could become parochial (I love that word  Smiley).

And will they ever put a seal on the cover?  flyingpig

You could use meter tails into a 1G box with choc strip to join to the standard 2.5mm cable. I would say that is essential to meet the 17th (mechanical isolation, out of reach etc).

cheers
Paul
Logged
Outtasight
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2010, 11:08:53 PM »

Today's thrilling episode is the cheapskate's guide to load automation...

Now that it's getting sunnier, I've started using the water heater again.  The problem is that it uses a lot of power and unless it's a perfectly clear day you get the odd cloud or the weather changes and suddenly its eating up the battery instead of soaking up spare power from the array.  I can run upstairs and turn the thing off and on but that means babysitting a water heater... Not clever.

So... Here's my old Toshiba T4900CT laptop - £5 from a car boot sale.  £25 for new battery. £5 for an ancient Ethernet adaptor that came with two free laptops... I luv car boot sales, me.

This one's a winner as a data logger as it's a P-75 processor that consumes just 11W when snoozing on half speed CPU and the screen and hard disk asleep (coz it's sending the data to a file share upstairs).  Windows 98 runs well on a dozing Pentium with 12Mb RAM... Ahh... those were the days.

The machine is plugged into the SunSaver MPPT charge controller by it's serial interface (only old laptops have proper RS232 ports) and the Ethernet card is plugged into the TriStar MPPT charge controller.  The MSView software just reads off the system parameters and pipes them to a single CSV data file on the file server upstairs.  Up until now it's managed to make some pretty graphs.  Time for some real work.



Velleman make a bunch of kits and this is the K8055 USB I/O card.  You can get one pre-assembled but it's £10 cheaper to get the kit and make it yourself.  So I did.  It also means I could leave out some bits I didn't need and they might come in handy for some other project.



The finished article is a useful bit of kit and a bargain at £30.  It has 4 digital inputs (for switches), 2 A/D converters for 0-5V sensors, 2 D/A converters with either analogue 0-5V output or 0-100% PWM signal and 8 digital outputs with LEDs (that could be converted to opto-isolators) and screw terminals for connection to the open collector drivers (the bit I'm interested in right now) for relays and so on.

The whole thing is powered by the USB port itself and works with the pre-programmed PIC controller on board and a supplied DLL for Windows to talk to it.  Velleman provide a bunch of demo code and a test program so you can play with it almost right away.  You can even gang four of these boards together on a USB bus as they have separate address codes that the DLL can talk to.

The plastic box it came in is sturdy and see through and will probably make a half decent case for the finished thing!



To drive a relay you need an external 12V DC power cube (car boot sale) and a mini 7A mains relay (scavenged from a dead UPS I have).  The relay fits conveniently inside this two way mains socket Cheesy  I love it when a plan comes together!



I happened to have an old copy of VB6 sitting around in a cupboard and so some fettling of the demo software source code gave me the interface I needed.  I read the Morningstar CSV data file and scan it for new entries (once every few seconds as it is being updated once every 15 seconds by the logger).  The new program builds an output CSV file that has the calculated values for the sum of the charger currents and the total generated power.  These can then be read by MSView on the server to display real time graphs of the total system output (previously I had to doctor the CSV file with Excel to get the graphs I showed earlier).

This program is only really interested in the battery and system state though.  Some rules decide when there might be available surplus power.  It does this by looking for when the battery is getting full at over 27V and with the array power being low (because it has finished absorbing and / or there are no other big loads on - e.g. the kettle).  The program tells the relay to turn on and the water heater starts.  This loads the system by 650W and if there's surplus array power the battery voltage will hold up as it continues to charge or just float.  The array can produce about 1100W on a good day so there should be juice to spare.  If not, the battery volts will fall and then the second parameter watches for this (now ignoring the power output).  If there's not enough solar juice, the battery will fall below float and the relay is turned off until the battery has recovered (back to above the voltage threshold and consuming less than the set power).

I'm still working on it so some things don't do anything yet.  The output check boxes will turn on/off other outputs but the automation works just on output 1.  The inputs are ignored (for now) but could be triggered from any switches (the Smartgauge has a relay output that can be triggered by a low SoC directly).  I've put some safeties on it too - ending the program turns off the outputs first.  A heartbeat senses if the logger has stopped sending data and shuts off the outputs.  Some range validation ensures that you can't put unreasonable thresholds in the variable boxes.



Here's what it did this afternoon as it got progressively more cloudy.  You can see there's enough power to charge the battery quite quickly but not enough to run the water heater so it cycles on and off (very slow PWM).  So I can now leave the thing plugged in all day and the load manager will give priority to charging the battery but whenever there's enough spare power it will progressively dump more and more into the water heater.

You can see where I turned on the 900W kettle for a quick cuppa and this drained the battery a bit.  The water heater shut off (as the volts sagged below the cut-off level) and it stayed off as the volts came up and the power drawn by the battery subsided.  This last bit is important as just looking at the voltage doesn't work because the voltage comes up quickly.  If you watch the power curve as well, you can tell when the battery has stopped absorbing power and it's safe to divert power to the heater.



The other outputs aren't used for anything (yet!) but I've got three more of those relays and they'd probably all fit in a typical 4 gang mains adapter  Grin

Morningstar wanted over £130 for their relay driver... 
Logged

http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
davebodger
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 137



« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2010, 11:30:28 PM »

Nice.
Did the Velleman kit come from Maplins?
I can see one of them coming in very useful.
I don't like my solar tracker because it gets confused on cloudy days.
  banghead
I feel a more programmed approach may be in order.  Smiley
Logged

Soladin Grid-Tie 400Wp tracker in London NW5.
Outtasight
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2010, 01:01:30 AM »

Yep.  Maplins do both the kit and ready made versions.

Velleman have a new line of home automation kits (not in Maplins yet) that look very interesting.

Logged

http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
Paulh_Boats
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2764



« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2010, 01:24:58 PM »

Outtasight,

Interesting work there, cheers. What would be really useful is turning on AC loads when the sun shines, so that our grid-tied power is used immediately and not exported (the FIT rate is great for generation alone  Grin).
The problem I think is identifying suitable loads and we have solar thermal already.


The washing machine and dishwasher would be ideal candidates but both of them have a Start button, so remote control would require serious hacking. Also wifey sets the machines going on her days off, so the manual solution is good enough.


It might be possible to power-off the fridge early in the morning, say 7am, then power it on when the PV kicks in... around 8am onwards on a sunny day and have a watch-dog timer to force it on by 9am at the latest. Mad Professor stuff perhaps  Wink

The "staring me in the face" solution is of course to charge a battery for lighting/laptops later in the evening - the 20% battery loss, battery costs and battery manufacturing energy (CO2) would have to be much less than the value of the free power otherwise its a waste of time financially and planet wise.


During March we need additional heating so a triac controlled fan heater could provide a varying load to match the PV output. But that assumes the house is well enough insulated to trap that heat for many hours before we return home.

Does anyone have similar "bright" ideas?  Wink

cheers
Paul
Logged
fred bloggs
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2010, 03:42:45 PM »

Outtasight,

I've been following this post from day one and your have inspired/given me some good ideas. I'm an electronics/electrical engineer and I brought aload of "cheap" PV panels last year to play with, will hopefully be installing them on the garage(man kennel) roof this summer. I've done some VB programming as part of a previous employement (12 years ago) and have already got all the bits and bobs! rescued from various skips at at previous works. Is it possible that you could let me have the VB source code for your "cheapskate" my kind of automation as my VB is very rusty  help and I need a bit of a push in the right direction!! Im sure that quite a few members would also be interested.

Many Thanks and keep up the excellent posts

Fred
Logged
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5085



« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2010, 11:31:11 PM »

Quote
The "staring me in the face" solution is of course to charge a battery for lighting/laptops later in the evening - the 20% battery loss, battery costs and battery manufacturing energy (CO2) would have to be much less than the value of the free power otherwise its a waste of time financially and planet wise.

Paul my prognoses  will be  that "Grid tied " homes will waste electricity /Energy  more easy now , because getting paid for

Or in a rude way , homes  that  export units  to the puplic grid and get paid for these units , are not their units any-more !

Billi
Logged

Guinness no Grid comes near

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Paulh_Boats
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2764



« Reply #129 on: March 24, 2010, 12:03:15 AM »

Quote
The "staring me in the face" solution is of course to charge a battery for lighting/laptops later in the evening - the 20% battery loss, battery costs and battery manufacturing energy (CO2) would have to be much less than the value of the free power otherwise its a waste of time financially and planet wise.

Paul my prognoses  will be  that "Grid tied " homes will waste electricity /Energy  more easy now , because getting paid for

Or in a rude way , homes  that  export units  to the puplic grid and get paid for these units , are not their units any-more !

Billi

Billi,

That is an interesting viewpoint! Even my small 490Wp system will pay half the electricity bill with FITs income, plus the 15% exported free to use so I understand your feelings.

However I look at it as a green investment with 8.5% return (better than a bank  Grin).... and I still want to reduce consumption as low as possible to save more money and CO2. However I have already signed up to 99% green energy from nPower Juice (offshore wind farm).

-Paul
Logged
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5085



« Reply #130 on: March 24, 2010, 07:49:16 AM »

paul
i just have a small and friendly argument on a German PV forum , cause since this year in Germany "exporters" can  use their produced units direct in the house and achieve a bigger profit .
Most exporters seem to use their own produced units sensible . Others start to dump the units into immersion heater ideas  and of course the air source heatpump  idea .
And then there are others that ask me about batteries and store all the units  they produce for their own consumption  and try to calculate their gained profit against the costs of batteries .

Perhaps i am jealous  (not really ) .     But the idea was, i thought a contract between the state and the exporter to receive payments for "Green Energy" to provide that energy towards a "Greener" State

Billi
Logged

Guinness no Grid comes near

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Paulh_Boats
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2764



« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2010, 08:13:03 AM »

paul
i just have a small and friendly argument on a German PV forum , cause since this year in Germany "exporters" can  use their produced units direct in the house and achieve a bigger profit .
Most exporters seem to use their own produced units sensible . Others start to dump the units into immersion heater ideas  and of course the air source heatpump  idea .
And then there are others that ask me about batteries and store all the units  they produce for their own consumption  and try to calculate their gained profit against the costs of batteries .

Perhaps i am jealous  (not really ) .     But the idea was, i thought a contract between the state and the exporter to receive payments for "Green Energy" to provide that energy towards a "Greener" State

Billi

Good comments Billi!   But I thought the Government wanted us to use PV energy immediately, otherwise it goes out to the grid and comes back in later in the evening from a dirty power station?? 

If our essential electrical tasks are done when the Sun shines... ultimately we need fewer power stations yes? It think that is the logic of the FITs scheme - energy independence.

cheers
Paul
Logged
Outtasight
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #132 on: March 26, 2010, 02:54:16 AM »

Outtasight,

I've been following this post from day one and your have inspired/given me some good ideas. I'm an electronics/electrical engineer and I brought aload of "cheap" PV panels last year to play with, will hopefully be installing them on the garage(man kennel) roof this summer. I've done some VB programming as part of a previous employement (12 years ago) and have already got all the bits and bobs! rescued from various skips at at previous works. Is it possible that you could let me have the VB source code for your "cheapskate" my kind of automation as my VB is very rusty  help and I need a bit of a push in the right direction!! Im sure that quite a few members would also be interested.

Many Thanks and keep up the excellent posts

Fred

Hi Fred,

Sure, PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the project files.  There's some dodgy stuff in it at the moment like hard coded file paths but you can easily change those to your own or do it properly with a directory combo control or just a text entry field that allows you to enter a file path.  Of course the fact that the program is designed to read a very specifically formatted CSV file means that the thing is riddled with hard-coded stuff so I figured the input and output file paths were the least of my worries.  If I'm going to bodge the hardware, makes sense to keep the faith with code...  whistlie

I'm gonna add some extra rules to the thing soon...

There's a condition where the battery has just reached 27.2V using say 150W of charge power but it isn't sunny enough for the array to make more than 200W charge.  This is causing the heater to cycle (it thinks that the battery has stopped absorbing power) and stops the battery from going to absorption mode using all the available <200W charge power.  I'll probably put a check rule in that looks for this rapid cycling (15 seconds duty) and does a "3 strikes and your out" rule to inhibit cycling and just do a "ping test" once a minute to see if the sun has come out yet. If not (indicated by the battery voltage collapsing as soon as the heater goes on) then continue sleeping for another minute.

There's no reason why (given enough "can I be ar~ed" time) I couldn't give the load manager a LUT that lets it predict the maximum power availability given the time of day and the month of the year.  So, if it was January and 2.30pm, it wouldn't even bother trying to seek a water heating opportunity.

Another possibility with the I/O card is to use a small 6V "garden shed light" amorphous panel I have laying about as a pyrometer with a fixed resistive load to feed an "available power" voltage value to the A/D port.  That way the load manager can actually measure how sunny it is and a suitable scaling factor should tell it roughly how much available power there is from the main array (ignoring shading problems).  Given enough observation, the LUT could take care of predicting shading.  The only truly unpredictable thing is the actual solar input power so that has to be measured.  Most other things can be predicted or deduced.

The other aspect of control I need is (ironically) to limit the battery charge current.  The array is oversized now for a 180Ah gel bank and can push up to 50A at full pelt.  The Deka support guy I talked to recommended that you don't go above 30A when in absorption phase by doing something like staggering the chargers so that the big TriStar only charges up to the float voltage and then the little SunSaver handles the absorption phase as it's limited to 15A.  The sales blurb for these batteries says you can charge the battery in 3.5 hours and let the battery draw up to C/3 current (about 60A) but only for float charging at 2.27Vpc.  If you use a 3 stage charger then you should limit the current to C/6 or about 30A in absorption to avoid overheating the cells (gas recombination creates heat).

But the problem with that is that the SunSaver array might be shaded at the time or it might just not be sunny enough to make 15A.

So the plan is to keep both controllers set for full absorption voltage duty but use the load manager to shave off the peaks.  A new variable for the "Heater = OFF" state will test for:

if (Power > 900W AND (charge_state = MPPT OR charge_state = Absorption OR charge_state = Equalize)) then Heater = ON

This will then watch for excessive power generation (that it is assumed is going into the battery) and turn on the 650W load to divert some of it (leaving about 250W for charging at a safe level and other loads.  The charge controllers can report their charge state and so I just added that variable to the others that they log in the CSV file.  The only state where it's ok for the full 1.4kW potential generation to be allowed is when the battery status is "Float" because then it's obviously another load that is drawing more than 900W because a battery in float stage can't draw that much.

Ideally, I'd have an analogue feed from the battery pack shunt so that the load manager actually knew the net battery current to base its decision on but that presents a few problems... One, the I/O board is on the other side of the house.  Two, I'd need to build a differential amp to measure the voltage (0.1mV per Amp at the shunt) and scale it up to the 5V FSD range of the A/D converter. Three, I'd have to isolate that amp from the I/O board as it's measuring a voltage in the middle of the battery bank so can't be allowed to see DC ground or it'll go BANG!

Of course, all this could just be pointing to the fact that I need a bigger battery bank that can handle the peak charge current Roll Eyes.
Logged

http://solarbodge.blogspot.com/ also BDPV Production Graph (real time updates)
2.80kWp off-grid. See 'Cobbled together PV in W.Sussex' in the 'Show Us Yours' section
rob26440
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 515


Clear off birds!


« Reply #133 on: March 26, 2010, 09:36:16 AM »

Quote
Of course, all this could just be pointing to the fact that I need a bigger battery bank that can handle the peak charge current

There are some juicy 12 volt 1600 Amp Hour industrial battery packs going on eBay for £330 each just now.  Bit heavy though, each 2v Cell weighs 100Kg!

If I had enough roof space for panels then I would have bought them!
Logged

S/E England. 30x58mm tubes, S/W facing 40deg pitched roof, 216L primary and 184L secondary cylinders, TDC3 with home-made, separate controller to switch between cylinders, 15mm tubing with min 25mm insulation.
EccentricAnomaly
Guest
« Reply #134 on: March 26, 2010, 12:44:49 PM »

Ideally, I'd have an analogue feed from the battery pack shunt so that the load manager actually knew the net battery current to base its decision on

Yes, measuring what you're really trying to control seems like a very good idea.

Quote
... but that presents a few problems... One, the I/O board is on the other side of the house.  Two, I'd need to build a differential amp to measure the voltage (0.1mV per Amp at the shunt) and scale it up to the 5V FSD range of the A/D converter. Three, I'd have to isolate that amp from the I/O board as it's measuring a voltage in the middle of the battery bank so can't be allowed to see DC ground or it'll go BANG!

How about putting the scaling amp (if required) and an A/D microprocessor on a little board floating at the battery bank voltage?  Drive it from an isolating DC->DC inverter and opto-isolate the serial digital output to the computer.  This, in a slightly more elaborate form, is what I have in mind for my system.

If you reference one side of the shunt to a point halfway up the range of the A/D so that the other side of the shunt can go either positive or negative relative to it you'll be able to measure both the charge and discharge currents.

What I intend to do is have the main 24 V house bus as the reference voltage of a set of A/Ds floating in this way then sense the voltages at various points in the system relative to this using the various leads as the shunts to determine the currents from various generation sources, to/from the batteries and to various loads.  Also, measuring the ground voltage and various taps in the battery bank using resistive dividers to get general health/state-of-charge information.


* DSCF1264.JPG (122.79 KB, 640x480 - viewed 527 times.)
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 ... 16   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!