Who actually pays the FIT?

[JohnS]

I am finalising my reponse to the consultation paper.  Thanks, Ted, for a useful starting point.

Who actually pays the FIT? 
Is it the DNO for the area you live in (old Southern Electric for me)? 
Or is it the Power company who supplies me? (currently NPower)
I cannot believe that it would be the Government.

I am minded to propose that the FIT for PV is set at, say, 25p above the payer's highest tariff.  E.g. if the highest tariff is 15p per kwh, the FIT would be 40p.  If the payer has a range of tariffs, eg 15p for monthly direct debit internet account and 20p for prepay meters, the FIT would be 45p not 40p.

I am also minded to propose a simple solution to installations over several years.  I.e. ignore degression and keep the original end date.  Thus an extension in the second year would get 36.5p for 24 years instead of 34.31p for 25 years.

Finally, scrap MCS approval for installers.  It should be sufficient to use approved components and a Part P qualified installer.

Any views?  If necessary limit the above to truly micro insataalations eg PV up to 5kwp.

[Rooster]

Who actually pays the FIT? 

Largely those in fuel poverty, who can't afford to invest in insulation or PV arrays and are therefore left burning Gas paying a premium for the privilege! Not least the large number of those over the last decade who qualified, by means testing, to have warmfront grant to improve heating/DHW ...... with ..... gas boilers ..... who now find the governments arranging for them to pay a premium on their gas to be passed on to those who ........ can afford a PV installation! 

I guess you meant who actually sends you the cheque though. 

Finally, scrap MCS approval for installers.  It should be sufficient to use approved components and a Part P qualified installer.

I'd agree but can't see it ever happening.

[Ted]

John, the idea is that your supplier will pay - either via a credit on your normal bill or maybe separately. Very similar to the present system - just different rates. (Rooster is also right - the FITs are not funded by government but by all utility customers.)

I think your suggestion for handling multi-year installs is excellent - but the numbers would have to add up, i.e. the owner shouldn't be much better or worse off than if the installs were treated completely separately. Haven't got time at the moment to run it through a spreadsheet and see.

Agree completely on the MCS issue.

[StBarnabas]

Hi
agree with both you and Ted wholeheartedly about MCS. Regarding approved products the list is quite strange. For example the Navitron 110Wp are not on the list but the 160Wp ones are. They are made by the same company (Yingli Solar) and use exactly the same technology. I have 110Wp panels which I purchased before I was aware of the MCS list (indeed it may have not been published). Can't help think there is a hidden agenda here as the smaller panels are much easier to manage for a DIY install.

[Paulh_Boats]

My Evergreen panels don't seem to be on the list, although other Evergreen panels are.

It beggars belief how you cannot get paid for kW generated by a solar panel not on the MCS list.  Are the electrons not approved or something? Its daft... you should get paid for power exported QED.

How dare the Government not pay for obvious green energy when oil, gas and coal stations pump out dirty electricity 24/7.

This lends theory to my recent belief that I should vote for myself at the next election..along with the great people on this site we could put together a combined energy and transport policy by coffee break the first day.

-Paul

[StBarnabas]

Paul
I would vote for you if you were to stand in the greater Hexam constituency. A Tory will get in as usual but for the first timer in my life I think it is not such a  bad thing!

[jango]

From mcs installer veiw,i see that many bad installs from diy people that are electricians with partp & niceic etc so its good that we have higher level of checks done on pv installers etc, it would be nice not have to pay them lots of cash and spend hours doing papper just to fit pv etc but there are so cowboys waiting jump in and rip people off etc.

Has for price per kwh i thick 46 to 56p would nice for 25 years and keep the rate for aslong aspossible and it should be paid by higher electric bills by people that do not have pv/wind.

There should be 0% loans for poorer house holds etc.

[chickensoup]

 Jango,
            What do you mean by 'bad installs', what do sparks not do?

[StBarnabas]

Jango
I am not in the business of making things hard for decent folk. I have been wiring circuts since I was 16,    have a PhD in Physics, worked in Sandia labs (USA) CERN (Geneva), RAL UK  etc. Am a charted Electrical Engineer could go on - have had advice on the StB system  not just the Navitron forum but some of the best brains internationally on PV (Current Job - Professor of Engineering at Northumbria University has one of the best PV groups in the UK etc.). Of course had a fully qualified electrician around to oversee the StB build.

The thing that put me against MCS installers etc was that out of the 6 companies I contacted only 3 replied and wanted £6.50+ per watt peak installed. And for what? Knowledge of solar position. atmospheric modelling, direct/inderect band gap semi conductors. quantum efficiency, MPPT tracking mechanisms? .. sorry running out of steam here.... but graduated C&G 30+ years ago...  

To be fair Moxi and Wookey have had much more reasonable quotes.

I'm not sure how the StB system is in any way inferior to an MCS system - it is possibly a bit overdone but has produced 360 kWh since the 26th of Sept which given that I an 55 north is nor bad...

P.S would have loved to have had Chicken  here but Stuart did him proud! 

[Paulh_Boats]

From mcs installer veiw,i see that many bad installs from diy people that are electricians with partp & niceic etc so its good that we have higher level of checks done on pv installers etc, it would be nice not have to pay them lots of cash and spend hours doing papper just to fit pv etc but there are so cowboys waiting jump in and rip people off etc.

Has for price per kwh i thick 46 to 56p would nice for 25 years and keep the rate for aslong aspossible and it should be paid by higher electric bills by people that do not have pv/wind.

There should be 0% loans for poorer house holds etc.

Is there an MCS approved way of installing that sparky could follow? Then an MCS chap could check things over and tick the boxes or not and recommend work, MOT style. I've always thought houses should have MOTs when sold.
Its not rocket science though and I'm pretty much on the edge of going off-grid with my panels.....but I'll breathe and see what the Conservatives do.

Paul
I would vote for you if you were to stand in the greater Hexam constituency.

Sean,
Thanks for the vote of confidence! One of the first measures would be vastly improved building regs to compete with the German Passive Houses... that would apply to social housing projects as well as the private market. It will take decades to live in the type of houses we should live in, sooner we start the better. A punitive £500 tax on landlords with energy inefficient property would improve out the rental market and lead to happier customers, especially those lower paid.

Then we need a vast Government sponsored advertising scheme to educate the public and show them the path to righteousness! i.e. serious energy reduction not just recycling nonsense.

A combined energy tax and VAT needs thought, so that there is a "dirty energy tax" for every product and service. Then the free market migrates towards greener products because of tax advantages. Perhaps a simple traffic light tax - red for bad and green for err..green. Needless packaging would hit the red tax.

The scrappage scheme for petrol/diesel cars would be stopped and transferred to electric vehicles. Businesses would have a legal responsibility to install charging points. Government would ensure that a proportion of highways money is spent on safe cycle routes around all schools, and kids would be paid pocket money to cycle to work, likewise income tax breaks for workers who cycle/walk. A school bus system like the USA would be popular and ease congestion, might as well pioneer electric buses that way.

Energy imports are strategic to Queen and country...the Russians will have us by the short and curlies within 20 years on gas supplies, hence we need dramatic reductions in heating costs, hence dramatically improved building regs. As Barack Obama says we need to wean ourselves off the addiction of imported oil and gas. Power generation does need Government help and organisation, leaving it to the free market was a crazy idea.

-Paul

[StBarnabas]

Paul
a manifesto to believe in! Curiously I am looking t a new car at the moment and would dearly like an electric one. If I can only charge it at home it will be very limited..

[Ivan]

Tomorrow is a Navitron day out...to the BRE to ask such awkward questions and hear the answers from the horse's mouth.

Hopefully, we'll have the answer as to why we have to pay a tipper-truck load of money to the BRE for them to certify a 110W panel when the 165W panel from the same manufacturer is listed already. Perhaps they worry that the manufacturer would use completely different components and raw materials especially chosen for low quality in manufacturing the 110W panel, whilst maintaining a high standard on the 165W model. Hopefully, we'll soon have the answers!

[Ted]

Ivan, I'd be very interested to know how much is charged to accredit a single model of PV panel under MCS.

This was an unanswered question from the last FITs workshop I attended.

[Ivan]

Will let you know....assuming they tell us, tomorrow - it's one of the questions we'll be asking.

[Stuart]

Paul
a manifesto to believe in! Curiously I am looking t a new car at the moment and would dearly like an electric one. If I can only charge it at home it will be very limited..

Could always make a bigger one, best not let StB Jr see this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3KWtL4loyk&feature=related