How many light bulbs does it need to change a man ?

[crispy]

Rupson,

Have a look at the video linked from the first post, and then dig into David MacKay's book. He certainly talks about nuclear as having an important place in our discussions about balancing energy supply and requirements.

Have a look also at his recent New York Times article, where he talks about energy needs per squared-M of the earth, divided by country, and talks about the energy density of the various non-fossil fuel alternatives, including nuclear.

Cheers, Crispy

[martin]

I'll quote myself..........
"I think his heart may be in the right place, but as you say, he leaps to some rather dodgy conclusions in choices of renewable technologies (I suggest he's listened to the same snake-oil salesmen the government have............)"

I should have added "and a misplaced desire to swallow the nonsense touted by the nuclear lobby" (which also can never be viewed as "renewable" energy, more "non-renewable, let's stuff the earth a bit faster and for nearly all time" energy.......)

[Rupson and Aliert]

Has anyone read any of James Lovelocks books ? He seems to me to be a very intelligent guy and as far as i'm aware completely independent and unbiased and he's an absolute nuclear fan !

He also invented the electron capture device which allowed the hole in the Antartic ozone layer to be detected !

[charlieb]

Yes.  Lovelock on physical and biological systems is great (he's up there with Darwin as one of the people who have REALLY changed our understanding of our world).  But Lovelock on human systems like the energy system is rubbish (I stress I've only read articles and heard him speak - haven't read his book). 
 
From what I've heard and read of MacKay he's the same - great on physics (and, probably, atmospheric science), and I love his attitude.  But he doesn't take into account the way technological shifts actually happen (ie interaction of technical and social systems).  Try googling Thomas Hughes, 'Networks of Power', for something that might point to how we might make the monumental energy system shifts needed   (on electrification of Europe and US, 1880 - 1930).
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=g07Q9M4agp4C&dq=hughes+networks+of+power&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=_bvhSrmNFuSTjAewnOXCAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Rupson and Aliert]

Charlieb,

try this, The Vanishing Face of Gaia: A Final Warning: Enjoy It While You Can, its his latest book goes into renewables in a big way.

[martin]

Lovelock filed firmly under "used to be brilliant, of late totally lost the plot......"

[crispy]

Martin,

How would you suggest that the UK generate the power it needs (including for transport), given the land (&sea) area it has. For reference, consider that average energy consumption per person in Europe is 120kWh, and that MacKay estimates we could halve that with efficiency measures.

Crispy

[billi]

What worries me is the other 79,999,879 people on our tiny island come 2033 who are'nt energy self sufficient !

ok i am always a bid more worried about all the others as well  and the priority in my brain is we are one globe  


there is one way of doing it get decentralized , small , produce your own , food and energy try to achieve self-sufficienty,

the other way is to trust the leaders   and get nationalists

Nuclear sounds like dinosaurs to me  
  
But people start to think its our last chance 


suicidal people are intelligent ,but

billi

[dhaslam]

Allowing for a bit of exaggeration on the output,  space saving and low cost  these with a bit of development should do a good part of the job.     They could be  also floated on concrete rafts at sea.     

www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/26/super-powered-magnetic-wind-turbine-maglev/

[crispy]

Allowing for a bit of exaggeration on the output,  space saving and low cost  these with a bit of development should do a good part of the job.     They could be  also floated on concrete rafts at sea.     

www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/26/super-powered-magnetic-wind-turbine-maglev/

Wow, they look pretty cool. A 1GW turbine that uses 100 acres. That's an energy density of 2500W per m2, about 1000 times better than anything currently available (a wind farm is about 2.5W per m2). If it worked, it would change the name of the game.

I would guess it is some time off, though, and we shouldn't delay govt policy waiting for this kind of thing to be proved to work...

[martin]

for Crispy - what we need is a "clean sheet of paper" job, and application of brain, not re-hashed old cobblers based on a system that is strangling itself on it's own profligacy.............(mostly based on "well we've always done it this way")
Always "start at the other end"......... take your average family - bung them in a passiv haus with a modicum of pv power, and with a fairly large garden (NOT present postage stamps), perhaps even built as addenda to every village in the land......... strongly discourage commuting/second cars/driving kids to school/pleasure flying, instead encourage "telecommuting", working from home, walking to school, decentralisation of power generation, "staycations" and a strong culture of "grow your own"....... you've immediately dropped that family's "needs" colossally..............Nuclear power? - stone age thinking - filthy, too expensive, too damaging, not in the least effective, and TOTALLY unnecessary
(What's more, as the late lamented Big Green Gathering proved, treading lightly on the planet can also be FUN! - proving that less is indeed more............)

[desperate]

I do agree with your vision Martin, I would go for it like a shot, BUT at the rate we could sensibly build Passive houses it is going to take more than a hundred years to replace our domestic building stock, thats without at least 20 years of planning objections from the nimby brigade. Then there is the commercial property, infrastructure, etc. We have been talking now for 30 years and done sweet f*** all.  We need to do something serious in 10 years, I'm sorry but I dont see it happening.

Desperate

[daftlad]

How many wears are there which have possibility of power generation? just look at the "Waterwheel is go" thread to see what can be done.
I like the idea of a clean sheet of paper, so much of our usage can be stopped. After reading about otherpower's water project which generates 1.9 amps at 12 volts, I thought is that enough to survive? I recon it is, maybe a bit of wind or solar in addition would be nice but 500 watts a day as a bottom line, I could cope on that.
I think the commercial wastage needs to be looked at as well, I supervised the re wiring of a west end department store and the amount of wasted energy was CRIMINAL or it should have been, not one low energy lamp in the public areas!
I also heard about another department store that needed a larger electricity supply, edf said that there was no more capacity available so they stuck 3x 2 MW generators on the roof.
And I go to a Gym that uses so much energy it really does my head in, but I have to go (long story)
I guess my point is, If we had to cope on 20 percent of the electricity that we currently use I recon we could cope quite well.
My 2 peneth worth
ta ta

Desperate
Quote "thats without at least 20 years of planning objections from the nimby brigade."
Hum what to do with nimbeys?..... let me think?.....

[charlieb]

Martin's got it in one.  Start thinking from scratch, rather than tinkering around the edges.   And while you're at it, start thinking about energy costing more than now.  Not a few p/kwh more, but ten or fifty times more.  We'd all survive perfectly happily, we'd just be forced to do the things that don't have a 'proper payback' now.
Can you survive on 1.9amps at 12v?  I don;t know how much energy that is (I think in watts) but I do know we could - a significant proportion of the world's population survives on zero electricity and zero carbon heating.

[daftlad]

Can you survive on 1.9amps at 12v?  I don;t know how much energy that is (I think in watts)

About 500 watts
And the department store I worked at used 1200 kw per hour? and the other one I ranted on about was proposed to use 6000 kw per hour 2000 kw of which was generated using diesel generators.
ta ta