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Author Topic: Integrated woodburner, solar tubes, oil combi and underground heatstore.  (Read 27637 times)
Countrypaul
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« Reply #210 on: May 30, 2010, 09:24:49 PM »

It certainly used to be polyester.

Paul
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #211 on: May 30, 2010, 09:25:05 PM »

Quote
Isn't GRP normally polyester?

thats a nice way of telling me  Smiley

thanks.

now Ive got to see if theres a brush on version of araldite ...

Is this the answer  ?  http://www.ardex.co.uk/epoxy_resins.asp
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sunandwindy
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« Reply #212 on: May 30, 2010, 09:47:34 PM »

followed by ..................   eerrrr Ive got a few tubs of black bitumen   stir

I have my doubts with using bitumen as a final layer as I feel its more of a temporary fix.

Thinking of sealing things. Flat roofs use bitumen (limited life), then some people are now having theirs done in GRP, however I recently had a section of flat roof done with a really tough plastic, almost rubber (but not actual rubber) film that is about 2.5mm thick and all the joints are hot welded together, then where its secured mid sheet, small patches are welded/sealed over the top. Don't know off hand what its called, it does has something like a 30 year guarantee, but its extremely fireproof as I tried to set fire to it on a gas stove! Perhaps that may be more suitable. Though at the end of the day its cost.

Just more thoughts

Steve
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #213 on: May 30, 2010, 11:38:29 PM »

been reading dhaslams excellent link - www.yachtsnet.co.uk/osmosis.htm


It is rare, but not that rare, to find osmotic blisters above the waterline. They can however occur anywhere on a GRP moulding. More often they are found underwater, often partially obscured by layers of antifouling paint, though they are also very common inside glassfibre fresh water tanks.

doh !

now Ive got 'blisterjuice' to add to the list of ingredients  Cry


Regarding the bitumen layer, I agree it doesn't seem like a permanent solution but it was suggested by my Chemistry Hero, Pontiff,  as a way of covering any joints that are submerged in the gravy.

 
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wookey
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« Reply #214 on: May 31, 2010, 01:49:50 AM »

slightly OT, but the mebrane sunandwindy is referring to is either EPDM (e.g. 'Sarnafil' from Sika and several others) or (rarely) Polyolefin ('polisystem').
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #215 on: June 01, 2010, 07:55:46 PM »

thanks wookey
my problem with any sheet material, is how it works at the top as the pipes, vents and wires that protrude through the GRP will be difficult to seal, whereas any 'brush on' solution seems to solve this problem (while introducing others)

As my scanner died and I do not fancy learning how to create a schematic on the computer, I tried to draw something and photograph it. I dont think it really works but having promised to do some schematics ever since page 3

heres the heat collecting hardware layout -


* heat collecting schematic 002 (550 x 733).jpg (58.53 KB, 550x733 - viewed 496 times.)
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sunandwindy
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« Reply #216 on: June 01, 2010, 08:08:47 PM »

Hi Noel,

Are all the pumps mains, or have you used a 12v one with a pv panel on the solar panel?

Is there a secondary circuit for the boiler circuit and plumbing for the radiators and hot water tank? or have I missed something? Edit... Yep I see its now marked up as a heat collecting circuit.. I'm just impatient!

I see you've added a flow meter. Can't remember seeing this in any of your photos, or have I missed it again?

Thanks for sharing

Steve
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #217 on: June 01, 2010, 08:26:13 PM »

Ha Steve

if I had 12v pumps, I wouldnt live in fear of powercuts.  sh*tfan
All management is based on 240v ac mains.
Another schematic is needed for this  wackoold

Think Ive mentioned the flow meter but it never seems to indicate flow, so its a bit of a dissappointment.
I tend to cut in the solar pump manually and feel the pipe for temp change by the flow meter, to check there is flow.
Can still use it to restrict or close off the solar flow though, as its got a built in ball valve.
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #218 on: June 04, 2010, 04:56:58 PM »

Heat distribution circuits -

note that taken individually, all three circuits are pretty simple and as close to passive / minium management as possible.


* heat distribution schematic (450 x 600).jpg (38.61 KB, 450x600 - viewed 435 times.)
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sunandwindy
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« Reply #219 on: June 09, 2010, 12:35:56 PM »

I had an email flyer today which may be of interest
Quote
EPDM Roofing 
 EPDM is the ultimate DIY solution for flat roof covering – ideal for extensions, sheds and outhouses either for new work or as a watertight cover over old leaky felt. Where once you might have used bitumen felt, now use EPDM for a job you can fit and forget.

EPDM is a tough black rubber sheeting and each order is individually made to the exact size and shape you need, with any seams factory vulcanised and guaranteed waterproof.
 
 Save 10% - Prices from just £18.72/sq m. Click here for details
link - http://www.diyplas.co.uk/Category.asp?catid=2&subcatid=163

It was the cutting and joining to the shape you required that I thought may have been of interest.

Steve
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Baz
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« Reply #220 on: June 09, 2010, 03:05:50 PM »

EPDM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber note the max temp. I had a plastic roof, might have been different stuff but it stank like a stinky think in hot weather as the plasticisers evaporated. after only 3 years it became brittle and curled up at the edges, leaked at the joints, and cat claws made big slits. Replaced with Wickes cheapest felt and goo - top notch.
However paint-on bitumen can't take the heat. I refresh joints wth a gentle paint stripper heat gun years after it has dried. Fantastic for sealing low temp stuff though.
Boat builders use both polyester and epoxy with glass. The epoxy is much more expensive so I think used more for joining sheets of ply type of construvtion. It enables you to develope a whole new set of hypersensitive allergies too.
Dural and most other 'strong' versions of aluminium contain copper so corrode themselves. Drinks cans might be a good idea, as with most pie trays etc if you collect enough and melt them down as they are purer to be softer to enable moulding.
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #221 on: June 10, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions regarding water retaining materials and chemistry, I have, after a bit of a chat with Alex the Techie, who works for the GRP suppliers, opted for vinylester resin as a top/gel coat.
Apparently its a much better product than polyester based gel coat and will cope with water at 110c plus its a lot more resistant to chemical attack and only £11 a litre including vat, activator, some blue powder and a splash of wax to stop the outer surface being a bit sticky.   Shocked

So finally, down t'pit for fun n frolics -

Preparation of the surfaces has been pretty miserable and a belt sander with 60 grit was utilised.
I always wore a fresh dust mask, as once the glass strands get exposed theres some pretty small particles on the move and some seriously itchy arms persuaded me to buy a handful of 'all in one' goon suits.

There was one very obvious brown stain had appeared halfway down one side, indicating a pinhole, so I rubbed the area back to glass mat, in readiness for a patch.

The bottom of the tank with all its festering blisters was dealt with by using the heat gun. This quickly identified the areas where the gel coat had separated from the underlying GRP as the trapped liquid steamed out and the gel coat curled and cracked. No amount of belt sanding was going to level up the resulting craters though, so I decided to build another good layer of glass mat and resin, to level it all off enough for the gel coat to stand a chance.

Next challenge was trying to track down some acetone to wash down all the prepared surfaces, as recommended by Alex the Techie.

This took a couple of excursions on my motorbike ( the weather being a bit nice and the pit being less so ) and on inspiration I phoned the Lard himself to see if he had any, or knew where to get some.

He was just setting out on a bicycle ride to a local vineyard and hinted at the route he would be taking .....

Ha, I could intercept him and inspect those wobbly legs ... or would they be covered in Lycra ...... ooh, what colour Lycra does he cover himself in Huh?

I rode like a madman but sadly our two wheeled tryst was not to be. Perhaps he hid in the ditch as I stormed past, not wanting the good Navvi folk to know what I would be obliged to reveal .....

Anyway it turns out that apart from Boots the Chemist, who will sell you a few cc of nail varnish remover for £2, no one sells acetone anymore as its a controlled substance or summat complicated. I did eventually get lucky at a car paint suppliers, who sell acetone as 'fast aggressive thinners'. It smells right and is identified by numbers only. whistlie

Back home and I had to consider how I would survive in a 2m deep pit loaded with acetone vapour.
The 4" in-line fan attached to a 3m length of elephants trunk, that I used before, was currently in service for dust extraction and air circulation for the rubbing down, so I cleaned out the duct, reversed the fan and created a lovely air feed to mouth and nose using a 1 litre lemonade bottle and some draft excluder, held in place by the bike goggles, with strap at front and gogg at rear of head. Awesome ! I even cut some slits to blow fresh air past my eyes as acetone and styrene are pretty harsh. Yeah its a bit cumbersome but it works a lot better than the mark 1 and it simply blows loads of fresh air exactly where its needed.

All was eventually looking good and ready for laying up the glass mat and resin on the bottom.
Using the resin and activator that I had previously used, I boshed it down on half the base area, ( its pretty tight down there at 2ft x 4 ft ) and waited, and waited .... No amount of heat or waiting  was going to get the resin more than a bit set though.  banghead

from Alex the Techie - Tetrosyl may use BPO hardener rather than MEKP which could explain why its not going off. If that's true it will never go off properly. Such are the conditions this tank has to work in, if you cant get it to cure you will, I'm afraid, have to remove it.


Doh ! bl00dy chemistry again.
So how come it went off last time using the wrong hardener  Huh
Hardeners are organic and 'go off' apparently  banghead

Odd that in places its gone off ok then ....

It was still a bit mobile today but I managed to do the other half using some fresh, correct hardener and have overlaid the semi set stuff with a good coating of resin that does set.
Hopefully once it starts to cook it will trigger a set right through but I am not all that confident.

If it does, then I am ready for the final gel coat, although I have a cunning plan for maintaining the water level in the tank that I may execute.


* heatstore repairs 008 (600 x 450).jpg (74.73 KB, 600x450 - viewed 334 times.)

* GRP in heatstore 004 (600 x 450).jpg (50.62 KB, 600x450 - viewed 333 times.)
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noelsquibb
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« Reply #222 on: June 10, 2010, 09:30:23 PM »

2 more -


* heatstore repairs 002 (600 x 450).jpg (73.11 KB, 600x450 - viewed 329 times.)

* heatstore repairs 007 (600 x 450).jpg (73.09 KB, 600x450 - viewed 332 times.)
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daftlad
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« Reply #223 on: June 10, 2010, 10:38:22 PM »

That's a good selection of chemicals, I wonder what would happen if you mixed them all together?  sh*tfan
ta ta
Oh and fingers crossed.
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Eleanor
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« Reply #224 on: June 10, 2010, 11:52:54 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions regarding water retaining materials and chemistry, I have, after a bit of a chat with Alex the Techie, who works for the GRP suppliers, opted for vinylester resin as a top/gel coat.
Apparently its a much better product than polyester based gel coat and will cope with water at 110c plus its a lot more resistant to chemical attack and only £11 a litre including vat, activator, some blue powder and a splash of wax to stop the outer surface being a bit sticky.   Shocked

So finally, down t'pit for fun n frolics -

Preparation of the surfaces has been pretty miserable and a belt sander with 60 grit was utilised.
I always wore a fresh dust mask, as once the glass strands get exposed theres some pretty small particles on the move and some seriously itchy arms persuaded me to buy a handful of 'all in one' goon suits.

There was one very obvious brown stain had appeared halfway down one side, indicating a pinhole, so I rubbed the area back to glass mat, in readiness for a patch.

The bottom of the tank with all its festering blisters was dealt with by using the heat gun. This quickly identified the areas where the gel coat had separated from the underlying GRP as the trapped liquid steamed out and the gel coat curled and cracked. No amount of belt sanding was going to level up the resulting craters though, so I decided to build another good layer of glass mat and resin, to level it all off enough for the gel coat to stand a chance.

Next challenge was trying to track down some acetone to wash down all the prepared surfaces, as recommended by Alex the Techie.

This took a couple of excursions on my motorbike ( the weather being a bit nice and the pit being less so ) and on inspiration I phoned the Lard himself to see if he had any, or knew where to get some.

He was just setting out on a bicycle ride to a local vineyard and hinted at the route he would be taking .....

Ha, I could intercept him and inspect those wobbly legs ... or would they be covered in Lycra ...... ooh, what colour Lycra does he cover himself in Huh?

I rode like a madman but sadly our two wheeled tryst was not to be. Perhaps he hid in the ditch as I stormed past, not wanting the good Navvi folk to know what I would be obliged to reveal .....

Anyway it turns out that apart from Boots the Chemist, who will sell you a few cc of nail varnish remover for £2, no one sells acetone anymore as its a controlled substance or summat complicated. I did eventually get lucky at a car paint suppliers, who sell acetone as 'fast aggressive thinners'. It smells right and is identified by numbers only. whistlie

Back home and I had to consider how I would survive in a 2m deep pit loaded with acetone vapour.
The 4" in-line fan attached to a 3m length of elephants trunk, that I used before, was currently in service for dust extraction and air circulation for the rubbing down, so I cleaned out the duct, reversed the fan and created a lovely air feed to mouth and nose using a 1 litre lemonade bottle and some draft excluder, held in place by the bike goggles, with strap at front and gogg at rear of head. Awesome ! I even cut some slits to blow fresh air past my eyes as acetone and styrene are pretty harsh. Yeah its a bit cumbersome but it works a lot better than the mark 1 and it simply blows loads of fresh air exactly where its needed.

All was eventually looking good and ready for laying up the glass mat and resin on the bottom.
Using the resin and activator that I had previously used, I boshed it down on half the base area, ( its pretty tight down there at 2ft x 4 ft ) and waited, and waited .... No amount of heat or waiting  was going to get the resin more than a bit set though.  banghead

from Alex the Techie - Tetrosyl may use BPO hardener rather than MEKP which could explain why its not going off. If that's true it will never go off properly. Such are the conditions this tank has to work in, if you cant get it to cure you will, I'm afraid, have to remove it.


Doh ! bl00dy chemistry again.
So how come it went off last time using the wrong hardener  Huh
Hardeners are organic and 'go off' apparently  banghead

Odd that in places its gone off ok then ....

It was still a bit mobile today but I managed to do the other half using some fresh, correct hardener and have overlaid the semi set stuff with a good coating of resin that does set.
Hopefully once it starts to cook it will trigger a set right through but I am not all that confident.

If it does, then I am ready for the final gel coat, although I have a cunning plan for maintaining the water level in the tank that I may execute.


Noel, finally twigged. You work for BP! I'm sure you'll fix that little leak soon  sh*tfan
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