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Author Topic: reverse power meter bodge?  (Read 9791 times)
Other-Power
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 10:24:37 PM »

Thats cool,

Are they for sale?

Regards

Jon
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BlueNev
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2011, 11:16:58 PM »

Great work, Alan.
I have been reading a suppliers thoughts on the noise made by Phase angle power controllers
"ZFM32H/300 Hi-Q EMC and Mains Conditioning Filter £149.50 + VAT The ZFM32H/300 is a high-Q EMC filter/Mains Conditioner which is designed specifically for removing very stubborn low and high frequency noise from the mains. It affords protection to sensitive equipment from conducted electrical noise and drastically limits radiated noise also. It is particularly effective for eliminating the noise generated by phase angle power controllers."

The other thought I had (and my wife too!?!) we saw a program about a luxury building that had to have special equipment to combat the possible fire problems associated with lots of dimmer controls around the building. These were more to do with the dimming of lower power lighting circuits not a 3kW heater which will consume 1-3kw therefore dimming much more than the low power lighting circuits.

Any one got practical experience of the noise, electrical interferance, and dimmer fire issues?

Alan, BTW, The links to http://ualstore.co.uk/ no longer work or do I have to be logged in?

cheers
Nev
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 08:22:07 PM »

The other thought I had (and my wife too!?!) we saw a program about a luxury building that had to have special equipment to combat the possible fire problems associated with lots of dimmer controls around the building.
Ah that sounds like Hamster's program on the Burj Al Arab hotel (err, sorry, Richard Hammond's Engineering Connections) - nice program but I thought his explanation of that issue was absolutely rubbish.

To explain it briefly, our power distribution systems are three phase down to street level - and into the building once you get to anything but the smaller commercial ones. Each phase is 240V to neutral, and for small loads that's all you use. The beauty is that by spacing the three phases 120˚ apart, a balanced load will sum to zero in the neutral. When one phase is at it's positive peak (ie +1), the other two are at -0.5, when one is at it's negative peak (-1), the other two are at +0.5), when one is zero, the other two are at + and - 0.8<something>. The sum of three sine waves, 120˚ apart, and of equal amplitude is always zero.

What this means for power distribution is that the neutral current is NEVER higher than the current in the most heavily loaded phase, and is almost always significantly less. By the time you average enough loads spread over multiple phases, as is the case when you get back up the distribution system a bit, is that the neutral current is always going to be a fraction of the phase currents and so you can make the cable considerably smaller - the neutral is the single cable along the top of the pylons.

That's the case for resistive loads, and also for loads with a purely inductive (motors) or capacitive element. Once your phase current ceases to be a pure sine wave, then this whole assumption breaks down. It came to the fore several decades ago when large office blocks had lots of flourescent lights and started getting IT equipment. Both have a poor current waveform, early IT gear especially so. Both tend to have a current waveform that rises slowly with voltage for a bit, then rises rapidly to a peak, falls rapidly, and then falls slowly as the voltage falls to zero - the rounded peak of the sine wave is "squashed in" at the sides and has a narrower, taller peak. As demonstrated in the program, phase angle dimmers have a particularly bad waveform.

The technical bit is that such a waveform has a large "third harmonic" component, the non-technical answer is that this component of the current does NOT subtract in a three phase system, it adds up. If all the current was third harmonic, the neutral current could be up to three times the size of each phase current. I don't think it takes too much imagination to see what this does to a cable designed for maximum of one times the phase current Shocked

In reality, the filter banks shown in the program were probably nothing to do with the internal wiring - you just size the neutrals to suit. However the electricity supply companies have rules on how "dirty" your load can be - and your supply as a generator*. Not only do they have to consider their own neutrals, but they also have to consider the effect of such "dirt" on their other customers. lastly, some of the waveforms you can get are not kind to transformers designed for nice smooth 50Hz - feed them all these higher frequency harmonics and it can cause additional losses, which manifests as additional heat (there are other considerations, but I'll leave them aside).

* I have it on good authority that the new windfarm off Walney (Barrow in Furness) could not be connected to the grid recently. They use static converters (a rectifier and inverter) to convert variable frequency from the turbines to 50Hz for the grid - and the output wasn't clean enough. Apparently they left enough room in the offshore substation for filters if this proved to be the case.

Hopefully this sheds some light on the subject.
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BlueNev
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2011, 01:46:09 AM »

"Burj Al Arab hotel" Simon, that's the one... I have to admit I woke up only when the bin of cotton wool went on fire, thus missing the explanation.
So we have a Star circuit with the 3 phases returning a max of one load down the neutral assuming all the phases stay balanced, but get some harmonics on top because dimmers shape the wave and hey presto, burning cotton wool!
Who you calling dirty computer supplie'R's? Have to admit to installing some of them 33 years ago... 10MHz processor size of a planet 8m x 2.4m x 0.7m. We had to supply huge MA (Motor/Alternator) sets to keep them going on a nice clean supply. One buildings lift was notorius for knocking out the drum. ( a disc with 1000 heads, one per track!!!) Buzz Bars(backed by huge transformers) with -5.2Volts that would take your hand off, if you showed it too much of your watch! Them wer't days.

Ran up one of the littler MA sets and pushed the button to flick from Star to Delta (and energise) and got the shock of our lives when the 6 months of damp came to the fore and made an almighty bang. Never seen two engineers move so fast... and a hand come back round to hit the OFF button! Not a cheap rewind!

A couple of simple chokes (split toroid cores) and a capacitor or two will do as a filter to clean up the mess from our dimmer.

My biggest worry is the cost of the project is climbing. I have just invested in an Arduino Uno and loaded the program I wrote for it... all I need to do is get the other electronics together... oh and fit a PV system... 7 weeks away... if I order it now!
It's all the extra goodies I am buying to satisfy the urge to get back to the days of ETI magazine/Wireless world!
The expensive bit will be the Phase controller... settling on a KC2025AX by Kyotto at around £30 not the EVR-25 from UA but I could be persuaded to go for all the heat sinks it is supplied with.

cheers
Nev
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2011, 07:58:32 AM »

So we have a Star circuit with the 3 phases returning a max of one load down the neutral assuming all the phases stay balanced, but get some harmonics on top because dimmers shape the wave and hey presto, burning cotton wool!
Yup, that's about it.
Quote
Who you calling dirty computer supplie'R's? Have to admit to installing some of them 33 years ago... 10MHz processor size of a planet 8m x 2.4m x 0.7m. We had to supply huge MA (Motor/Alternator) sets to keep them going on a nice clean supply. One buildings lift was notorius for knocking out the drum. ( a disc with 1000 heads, one per track!!!) Buzz Bars(backed by huge transformers) with -5.2Volts that would take your hand off, if you showed it too much of your watch! Them wer't days.
Just slightly before my time. But that MG set would actually have been a very clean load, it would have had very low harmonics although it would have had an inductive power factor. But in this context, very clean.
Quote
Ran up one of the littler MA sets and pushed the button to flick from Star to Delta (and energise) and got the shock of our lives when the 6 months of damp came to the fore and made an almighty bang. Never seen two engineers move so fast... and a hand come back round to hit the OFF button! Not a cheap rewind!
hysteria
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echase
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 06:11:13 PM »

-spam post removed, any repetition will result in a ban-
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:17:28 PM by Samantha (Navitron) » Logged
Philip R
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 10:10:59 PM »

Simon Hobson Quote "- the neutral is the single cable along the top of the pylons". ...........No it is not!

HV ciruits on towers (Pylons) are 3 wire three phase, one circuit on each side. (For the German readers, you have single phase 110kV 16.66Hz Traction supplies as well for the Deutsche Bahn) The wire on the top is an earth conductor, it give a degree of lightning protection to the circuits below.

The three phase circuits will be connected at one end to a delta winding in the generator transformer, supergrid transformer, or the step down transformer at the bulk supply point feeding from national grid into Local HV network. Delta windings can absorb some triplen harmonics as they flow round the loop in the transformer and turn into heat. (additional losses) 

With respect to invertor drives in wind turbines.  Depending on the invertor size, big one use thyristors as opposed to IGFETS therefore will require the use of harmonic filters, consisting of inductors and capacitors of various sizes and types to filter out the various harmonics generated by the windturbine invertors.

PhilipR
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